Comment by wtfwhateven
4 months ago
>Palestine has not existed prior to Israel.
Wrong.
>I have actually read the articles you mention in the past, multiple times, since I make it a habit to be informed about this topic.
No you haven't and no you don't. Asking why they're not a member of the UN (US vetoing) proves this.
>If 80% of UN members said the earth is flat it wouldn't be flat.
Correct. Good thing no UN member said the earth is flat despite the earth not being flat. The UN doesn't dictate what celestial body is or isn't flat. Your analogy is nonsensical.
>Different UN members have different political reasons for saying things.
Irrelevant.
>They just repeat this circular logic where somehow a state exists because it's recognized even
Yes that's how it works.
>though it doesn't actually exist.
Well, they do actually exist, most of the world says they exist.
What is your criteria of statehood if not international recognition? It seems having a currency, a government and borders is enough for you which means you surely believe Sealand is a state? Or numerous other microstates
Who are the past presidents/prime ministers of the Palestine that existed before Israel?
What was the capital of that state?
What was the currency?
What were the laws and/or constitution?
Who was the chief of police? Minister of defense? Minister of the Interior? Name one.
The standard criteria for statehood is: a defined territory, a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
But if your starting point is that a state isn't an actual physical entity, and it can come into existence by sheer will power, retroactively, then sure, the state of Palestine has also existed 10,000 years ago in South America. Also there is no other example in human history of this other than "Palestine".
I would love to go into more depth here but it doesn't feel like you're interested. Your counter point that I'm not aware of the US veto powers and therefore my arguments are wrong or I'm uninformed isn't serious. I'm well aware of that.
You haven't answered my question of why Jordan and Egypt didn't recognize West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian state up to 1967.
EDIT: I'll also add that if your position is that the established international processes for recognizing statehood apply then the US veto preventing that statehood also applies. If the security council has not recognized Palestine as a state then the recognition of those 80% is meaningless. You can't have this both ways, if the international conventions/process don't apply then they also don't apply towards your goal. If they do apply, then Palestine is not a State.
Countries like Canada have explicitly said that their recognition is really about the future two state solution. It is a way of applying political pressure on Israel towards what they believe is the solution to the conflict. They are pretty clear about that state not magically coming into existence because of their "recognition" and their recognition is also conditional on many things which the Palestinians have so far failed to meet (various reforms, de-militarization etc.)
>a defined territory, a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
All of these are fulfilled.
>I'm well aware of that.
You would not have asked if you were "well aware".
By your own reasoning if the US said the earth isn't round then you'd agree with them. After all Palestine wholly fulfills your criteria of a state.
>You haven't answered my question of why Jordan and Egypt didn't recognize West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian state up to 1967.
I don't need to as it doesn't matter.
>But if your starting point is that a state isn't an actual physical entity, and it can come into existence by sheer will power, retroactively,
>if
It isn't.
>but it doesn't feel like you're interested.
I would be interested but you keep making straw man arguments, being inconsistent and resorting to "some people don't believe it exists so it doesn't exist"
I am very consistent. What's inconsistent about my argument?
Can you give me three other examples of states where their existence is similar to the existence of "Palestine"? How is Palestine not a snowflake here? And if it is, why? What in your mind does the "existence of a state" mean exactly? What is your reference?
Please answer my question about the State of Palestine pre 1967. Did that state exist before 1967? Did it exist e.g. in the 1970's or the 80's? Did it meet the same criteria? What has changed?
Please expand on why you think a State of Palestine existed before 1948 and Israel.
What was the timeline for recognition of the State of Palestine by those 80% countries you're so happy to enlist in your support. What's different about the conditions before and after that timeline? What is the international law basis for the existence of the Palestinian Authority?
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