Comment by Fwirt
1 month ago
Samsung appliances have among the worst reputations for ease of repair and lifespan. Sadly most other brands are rebrands of Chinese conglomerates or not much better on the quality chain. But honestly it's also a lottery. We bought a fridge on sale for $500 as an emergency stopover when our expensive fridge was delayed by a month during a move, and it's still plugging along out in the garage, a hostile environment for fridges. All the parts are very accessible too which bodes well for repair, although the leveling feet did snap off.
However, when you see the viral videos of "dream fridges" from the 1950s, it's important to remember that adjusted for inflation they would be something like $10k today. Of course they also last 10x as long, but you can still find fridges in that price range today with a similar value proposition. The question is whether or not you're willing to pay that upfront. I think we've all been so conditioned to accept that appliances go obsolete that it doesn't seem possible for a fridge like that to ever pay for itself.
It's the boots theory at work.
Maybe we need a new boots theory:
The rich person buys a $3500 pair of boots that comes with surveillance, useless AI, and bricks itself on the next firmware update.
The poor person buys a pair of boots, that are... boots.
"You are so poor that when AWS goes down, you still can get into your house" -- seen somewhere
Which phase of capitalism is this? Suffering costs extra, and you'll gladly pay for it!
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It's hard to make the right boots analogy (try it yourself if you think you can), but to speak of fridges —
• The rich person's remodeller (or the developer of the house they buy) buys a commercial-kitchen prep fridge for the house's kitchen. This is a big, powerful, durable, repairable, no-frills, utilitarian fridge, that could be viewed as attractive or ugly depending on your opinion on brutalism. The rich person never sees this fridge. It's kept in the butler's pantry and only their private chef ever touches it.
• The rich person's interior designer then buys an elegant/classy half-sized in-wall glass-door fridge to live in the kitchen itself. This is intended for the rich person's household staff to keep constantly stocked with snacks and drinks for the rich person to grab. (Also, if the rich person thinks they want to cook one day, the staff will prep the exact ingredients needed in advance, keeping them in the butler's pantry until called for, but will then stage any "must stay cold" ingredients here.) This fridge is generally a piece of shit, made with huge markups by companies that make fancy-house furniture. But it sure is pretty! If (when) it fails, the staff can temporarily revert to just serving the role of that fridge, running to the butler's-pantry fridge or other cold-storage area (maybe a walk-in!) when the rich person wants something. (Also compare/contrast: in-wall wine cooler.)
• The rich person's household staff might respond to the rich person's request for more convenient access to snacks/drinks in certain areas of the house by buying + keeping stocked one or more minifridges. There'll certainly be one in the house's bar. (There's always a bar.) These are sturdy commercial-grade bricks, built by the same companies that build the ones that go into hotels; but these companies serve rich people just as often as they serve hotels, so they tend to have an up-market marque that makes the fridge look fancy while reusing the well-engineered core.
Parent was funny but almost a non-sequitor.
I appreciated the kernel of truth: industrial fridges will not come with adware in the foreseeable future. Buy industrial.
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You're talking about a _very_ rich person, there. Most merely rich people don't have household staff.
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It's probably more like a rich person will spend $50 on a pair of boots that will last 10 years, while a poor person will spend $10 on a pair of boots that will last a year. The upper middle class person will spend the $40 on a pair of boots that comes with surveillance and useless AI, while a middle class person will spend $30 for the same, except it bricks itself on the next firmware update.
Boots and shoes are interesting because they're genuinely an area where premium materials and construction _could_ significantly improve how long they last. We're talking 1-2 years for "normal" boots and decades for $500+ boots (with re-soling) There's also a good middle ground here. I'm not saying everyone needs really expensive boots, but it nice that you can actually spend more money for higher quality rather than a horrible system on a chip that fails after a year and renders a whole product useless.
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where, outside of thrift stores, are you finding boots at these prices?
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The rich person goes to an exclusive London cobbler who spends 11 days carving out a model of his feet, one for left and one for right, out of expensive hardwood. Once complete, a team of masters and apprentices carefully craft him bespoke shoes out of premium leather (straight from Italy!). When finished, the shop calls his assistant and has them delivered. It only costs about $40,000.
You, the poor person, spend $150 on crappy Nike athletic footware, that isn't sized to fit, will fall apart in 6 months (3 if you're using them for actual athletics), but are unfashionable in 3 weeks (but you'll buy them for your middle school children anyway). And you'll think you're rich doing it. Never mind that the cost was $4.75 (up x2 what it was pre-Covid) in Bangladesh, plus $0.30 shipping across the Pacific. The sweatshop worker got a cut of $0.04 for the pair.
The analogy doesn't work though, because people nowdays are paradoxically even stupider than they were in Victorian times.
Not that dissimilar to Wirecutter's advice on appliances: either buy the cheapest of the cheap because it'll have the fewest parts that can break, or the most expensive since it'll be built with high quality components and hopefully be repairable.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/modern-appliances...
The cheapest appliance is definitely cheap, whereas you generally have to take on trust the quality of the most expensive. The rule of thumb I use is "you don't get what you don't pay for", which is not the same as "you get what you pay for".
My point was more along the lines of the fact that below a certain price point, you can't be sure whether you're paying $3500 for actual build quality and features or marketing. A $500 fridge could last forever, or it could last exactly as long as the (very short) warranty period. Also, cheap stuff may last forever in some ways, but it's been cost optimized in a million different ways that make it more annoying to use. In my case the compressor is fine, but the plastic interior has some inexplicable cracks in it and the feet broke off. But at least it will never advertise to me.
Isn't that reversed now? You can only afford the device that is subsidized by the analytics you will be generating for them while the rich person can afford to by the non-subsidized version.
No, these are US$3500 fridges.
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There's a midwit bell curve meme lurking here...
Boots theory yes, but there also seem to be a paradox of reliability of cheap things.
Manufacturers which are aiming at being dirt cheap and selling lots of products, have low margins and simply cannot afford too many replacements / warranty repairs. High margin products don't care, they could make you three in that price and still be ok.
The issue is that the 10k fridge is not actually any better.
The "luxury" appliances can be double that and are still shit.
Not quite accurate as a blanket statement. Munro did a very detailed tear down series of a sub zero refrigerator that’s very interesting. Youtube link: https://youtu.be/KAYj6m9QtDU
I wish more content like this existed. It’s the only type of review that is worth paying attention to.
Long story short if you live in an energy market like california the energy savings of the sub zero will likely offsets its additions cost over the lifetime of the unit.
It's a little funny that, by far, the worst power and internet I've ever had [0], both by cost and by quality, has been in the Bay Area. The easiest way I'm aware of for me to cut my internet bill in half, cut my power bill 4x, have 30 fewer days per year containing electrical outages, and get back up to normal fiber speeds is to move to the Midwest.
[0] Excluding anywhere I lived for less than a couple months, like the middle of the Pacific or an exceptionally rough road trip through Wyoming.
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It's so crazy that even though California is in some ways the center of the technology universe we have had a dysfunctional electrical grid and market for decades. This has been an ongoing governance failure across multiple administrations and political parties. If we ever want to build stuff here and cut the cost of living then cheaper electrical power is a necessity.
I see three videos and I don't see any mention of how much electricity they use?
Looking up the fridges myself, a Sub-Zero BI-42UFD/O is rated at 693kWh yearly, and a Frigidaire FG4H2272UF is rated at 671. There's no difference.
Depends if it's luxury or commercial. Commercial products are generally able to be fixed, but there is a quite a price premium on them.
Commercial and consumer dishwashers are only the same in that they're both called "dishwashers" and use water. The former expect little to no food, have cycles measured in minutes, and run at temperatures that would eat more sensitive dishes alive.
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Commercial products usually require knowledge (expertise?), and have their own limitations. Even repairability can be an issue in a different way.
I don't know for dishwashers, commercial printers are expected to be serviced by the maker or affiliated business and getting parts as a mere peasant can be pretty complex. Surely rich people can just throw money at a contractor, but that's not what we're talking about I think (otherwise having a new one delivered everytime would also just work)
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The old fridge had much smaller usable volume inside. Modern insulation allows for thinner walls which increases capacity. Same for modern ovens.
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Miele did the best advertising ever, and I believe it even got a news story. A woman had been using their washer for 25years and Miele reached out and asked if she wanted a new one for free, for no other reason than to upgrade. Iirc she declined as the one she had worked perfectly. I have a vacuum from them, a cheap model, been working for 12 years so far. It’s probably the only appliance brand I would trust, even if I’m sure they have bad stories too.
I got another way of looking at it: it's not worth it having appliances that last 20 years, because in that time the tech itself can and does improve a lot.
Ready example is my aunt: a very good and expensive Miele washing machine, that was made to last as things were before. But now 10 years have elapsed and modern washers come with bigger drums, much lower noises, optimized water and electricity usages, and more effective washing patterns.
But she's stuck with her old and trusty one, because she feels that it's working "like new". And she's not wrong, it works well, so it became a sort of a "golden cuff" so to speak (not knowing any better metaphor). So good and expensive, that now getting rid of it for a new one feels like a waste of money for not much gain.
She’s not stuck with her appliance unless she has FOMO anxiety, she paid for her appliance once and if it’s still working then all is good. Marginal improvements don’t justify buying the same thing over and over.
Counterpoint: some appliances reach "good enough" status and the only "improvements" are cost-cutting that makes them more fragile or less reliable.
My friend has a microwave from the late 70s. The time/power are set by turning knobs - no fiddling with a bunch of buttons and modes - the turntable is metal so it can't break. The only thing I would consider missing is a popcorn mode, not a big deal.
Edit: Another great example is toasters. Toasters have not gotten better in my lifetime and older toasters are probably more reliable than what I could buy today.
Inverter microwaves are a noticable improvement over regular microwaves. True variable power instead of time slicing means I can precisely heat up almost any food evenly all the way through.
I often want to set my microwave within 5 seconds for small items, so no knobs for me please. And I like having a delayed start option. Modes never happen without me asking for them.
Direct drive models are a little quieter. Modern drums are slightly larger. Many people live where there is plenty of water, so increasing water efficiency isn't very valuable. It's not worth increased fabric wear or energy consumption!
There isn't much gain. That's the point! She's got a device that's nice to use, repairable, is well-designed, and isn't serving her ads. She's fine! Really. If she wants a new washer, Miele washing machines hold value and can be resold.
She probably doesn't think about it, which is the real gift. She's free to think about literally anything else! I have an extension to the Vimes boot theory, where you don't even notice your boots when they're working like they're supposed to. Most of us aren't enlightened enough to notice and appreciate that our feet are dry. This reduced cognitive overhead increases capacity for creativity and play, which further amplifies the life outcomes of people buying cardboard-soled boots vs leather boots.
I have a similar dilemma with my car. I drive a 25-year old Lexus with a bizarre electrical glitch. The ABS sometimes goes off as you come to a stop, for no reason at all. It only ever happens below ~10mph, and only when decelerating gradually. Never happens under heavy braking. It's not a safety hazard, and honestly you get used to it. Yet, anyone who test drives this car will run for the hills because it feels spooky.
It's still a terrific car. Comfortable, well made, fast enough for all practical situations. Unusally low mileage for its age. An engine that's sought after in the tuner community. But, it's unsellable. I'm stuck with it, whether I like it or not.
The good news is that I like it. The funny news is that I took a new job that will move me to the Bay, and whatever my new employer is paying to move my car out there is definitely more than my car is worth.
Check your wheel speed sensors.
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why not fix it?
Maytag/Whirlpool washing machines in the past 10 years come with nylon hubs instead of the metal hubs they used to have. The splines wear out quickly and you’ll need to replace it. Most people will just buy another machine.
We have a high end bosch (the absolute best model of the best brand the year we bought it), and it’s been wonky for three of the five years it has lasted so far, and now rubber noiseproofing is falling out and the racks are rusting through / breaking.
Definitely keep the old dishwasher till it dies.
(The bosch is quiet and cleans well, fwiw. The magic heat free drying minerals are nice. It’s a shame they’ll be in a landfill in a few years.)
That one is sunk cost, I think golden handcuffs are for highly compensated employment.
Sunk Cost is usually something we encourage people to avoid, but in the case of the capital infrastructure of your home, we have to factor depreciation. The aunt is not likely going to re-sell the washer for market value (like a car). It would be recycled when the new more high tech model comes in. A total loss.
Theoretically it would hold its value and there would be a secondary market. Then she'd pay for the upgrade and not an entirely new machine. I wonder if that's the case for Miele.
> it's not worth it having appliances that last 20 years
Think John Deere tractors as well as adware refrigerators.
Do you really believe that a newer washer actually somehow makes clothes appreciably more clean? Quieter, perhaps, and maybe a little less water, but so much so that you'd ever notice if a persons clothes came out of a multi-decade old machine that's in good shape versus a new one, I would wager you'd never notice, and frankly every generation of machine I've owned, even the expensive ones manages to get worse, harder to repair, and last less and less time. If you've got something that works and doesn't require a dozen elves at some factory in Shanghai or Berlin to do ancient satanic rituals just to replace a knob or repair a switch, I think you'd be crazy to get rid of it.
I wonder if those expensive fridges are any more serviceable. I'm guessing someone with $10k to spend on a fridge doesn't care how easy it is to fix because they'll never do it.
I'm not sure about that. The issue that I'm having is that if I could spend $10,000 and not have fridge issues for 10, 15, 20 years I might be tempted.
The problem is that there might be problems with the equipment or problems caused by the installer.
A few years ago, we ended up replacing a Sub-Zero fridge (27 years old) with another one because the repair bills were mounting. Because of the way the previous owner did the kitchen, using any other kind of fridge other than the 2' deep, 7' high kind would have involved remodeling. It wasn't quite $10k but it was close.
At our new house, we had a repairman fix the ice maker in our current fridge. It's 17 years old and could have come off the floor at Best Buy or Home Depot (NOT a Sub-Zero, in other words) but he recommended keeping it until it failed because the quality of current appliances is not as good.
Our water heater is going to need to be replaced because it's 17 years old and showing signs that it's getting too old. I want a heat pump water heater because the gas water heater is the only gas-powered appliance we have. Trying to assess reviews of heat pump water heaters and of the local plumbing companies is not fun.
>I'm not sure about that. The issue that I'm having is that if I could spend $10,000 and not have fridge issues for 10, 15, 20 years I might be tempted.
What kind of fridge issues are you having? I just buy a $1000 Miele/Liebherr and it's fine for 10+ years. 0 repairs.
> you can still find fridges in that price range today with a similar value proposition
Does anyone have examples of consumer fridges like this?
Is Liebherr not a thing in the US? At least in Europe all the Miele fridges are basically Liebherr with different interior setup and the Miele logo slapped on them. No smart things, unless you buy the smart box that you can attach, but otherwise they are quite reliable and solid.
sub-zero or thermadore maybe?
Parents have a sub-zero that’s over 20 years old and in good condition, no idea if the new stuff is as well built.
Miele still has a good reputation, and you’ll pay for it. https://www.mieleusa.com/category/1022129/refrigerators-and-...
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> rebrands of Chinese conglomerates
Eh, I've got a very reasonably priced Haier fridge that I've had no issues with at all. Maybe I'm just lucky, and it definitely helps that there's no built in ice maker or water dispenser (those things seem to break first) but it's lived longer than the refrigerators that the rest of my family have.