Comment by jmward01
3 months ago
I like the idea, and we need variety in the market to keep things evolving, but I like the bells and whistles. I just don't want it to phone home. Honestly, I want the title to be 'we don't have a network connection and we can still be a car'. Privacy is my #1 feature.
I own 3 EVs. Two of those, from 2012 and 2014, were built with 3G modems, and fully lost connectivity in 2022 when the 3G networks were turned down. Nothing changed, not even an error message inside the car, except that trying to connect to them with their apps now fails. They're still totally functional cars. The failure mode on both appears to have been "guess I don't have service, I'll sleep the modem." Bluetooth still works, but even if that failed one of them has a functional CD player!
My newer EV that came with LTE connectivity will also fully work without network connectivity, except for the apps and remote updates. You can turn off the built-in cell connectivity via the head unit menus, and if you're especially paranoid, you can pull the fuse on the modem (and I've done it!). When it doesn't have a network connection it too operates just like a normal car.
There's a lot of fear around EVs being "software on wheels" based on a few manufacturers making non-remote features that depend on remote connectivity and botching updates or requiring subscriptions, and I agree that all is super problematic both from a privacy perspective and point-of-failure reason. But there's absolutely nothing intrinsic to the core design of EVs that demands that they're connected to the network.
I have a BYD Seal and this was as simple as removing the SIM (it's in the armrest compartment and just pops out).
On some cars you can also unplug whatever radio/modem doodad is responsible for phoning home. I have a Ford Maverick and disconnected the "telemetry module" which resides under the transmission hump by the front passenger seat.
I no longer receive updates to the infotainment system and I can't unlock the doors with my phone, but I also don't have the dealer emailing me service ads with my exact current mileage and tire pressure.
This is how it should be if the user prefers not to be connected.
How does this interact with the EU "eCall" mandate? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
(one of those things I've seen very little discussion of, the WP page correctly points out that this mandates a mobile-station in every car; although it does not precisely mandate that it be always-on, in practice it will be in order to manage messaging promptly)
Since eCall uses 112 infrastructure, it does not need subscriber identity, as the call will be accepted by any network in range.
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Phones can call 112 without a SIM, so it might work, though I haven't tried it.
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I mean, even back in the OnStar days, you could "opt out" and cancel the service and it would track you anyway. With BYD or any other car maker, I'd be worried the SIM was a placebo.
This is where things like a HackRF or flipper zero are useful - leave a scan running over 24 hours from multiple fixed locations within the vehicle and you can detect if there are any wireless transmissions, and then triangulate on exactly where they come from using several pieces of yarn cut to the length of estimated distance from the source.
Cars should be independent, local only devices. Having cloud dependencies is just reckless and stupid.
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What would the car maker gain from adding a decoy sim?
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Privacy, and I don't need my car to be a driving collection of CVEs 10-20 years from now, because of some built-in modem that's ancient by then.
So then maybe you actually do want software updates...
It would also save the manufacturer from having to put stuff like "collect data on drivers’ sexual activity and sex lives" in their privacy policy.
I really don't get this insane need to track everything. The computers in cars should be pull data, never push.
Speaking of variety in the market: does anyone know how the capital barrier for developing an EV compares to a combustion drivetrain?
I wonder if, now that China has a developed supply ecosystem, it's becoming possible to build a car with lots of commodity/white-label parts. And I wonder if, as the quality of this supply chain improves, that means we'll start to see more small players emerge?
(Pure speculation)
That would be an interesting startup – manufacturing and supplying core EV components, all the way to rolling chassis.
A data connection still has tangible benefits e.g. remotely starting the AC/heating, live status of chargers / route planning, online map updates, eCall etc
If only I could trust that is all it did. I want 'airplane mode' for my vehicle. I turn my phone to 'airplane' mode all the time specifically because I don't want to give them access to where I am and all the other telemetry. I want incredibly strong protections that their network access isn't abused. Tools like logging all connections by application and the ability to block anything. Blocking when these tools can use the network (only when I have actively let them because I am actively using it for example) and opt-out by default with independent third party auditing of everything they release so I can build trust. I want real guarantees with real consequences when they are broken. I want devices to be mine, not theirs. Right now it is like someone has keys to my house and regularly comes in and installs hidden cameras without my permission. It is evil and people should go to jail for it. Unfortunately though, right now I have 100% trust that they will abuse their position which means I see every 'feature' that connects in any way as a major negative and not a positive. It is deeply unfortunate because I want to enjoy the things I pay for instead of treating them like the enemy that they currently are.
Exactly. If the last decade has shown us anything, consumers will always opt for the convenience features and cost far ahead of privacy concerns. I can't think of many successful consumer products with privacy as their key selling point, despite how many times it shows up here. Apple products maybe, but privacy is listed as feature #6 of the 7 features highlighted halfway down the page on https://www.apple.com/iphone/
It's a good thing cars aren't required to have a visible, unique identifier or government and corporations might be able to track your movements.
As with everything to do with society and computerised features, it is a matter of scale.
Cameras reading numbers plates at multiple locations -including speed! - is one thing.
Noting your : location, speed, direction in subsecond increments, your climate control preferences, what songs/eBook you are listening to, your face imagery (thanks sleep alert camera) and listening to your conversations... this is a whole other level of possible privacy invasion.
Is all of the above being tracked? I could imagine much of that is unwieldy, or not that useful, data. But how can you know whether a company is taking this data or not without first being suspicious? And if you are suspicious at this level, then what could a company say to convince you they are above board, and only using your data to your benefit.
> Privacy is my #1 feature.
I respect your choice, but do you walk the walk - don't carry a phone, no bluetooth devices, built your own router, run no javascript on your browser, etc, etc, etc.