The source is only partially available; they released the source code of the game logic, but the engine was not included in the source release. You'd need to reverse engineer & remake the engine to make any major improvements to the game, such as porting it to new platforms.
This sounds like how most moddable games of the era released their SDKs. You could make a mod that changed gameplay and/or assets, but you needed the needed the original game itself for the engine and original assets as a foundation/runtime. One step further would be a 'total conversion' that replaced all the assets but you still needed the engine, and then you get later releases like the id GPL releases of the engine so you could have engine+gameplay+content all by yourself. Even then you'd still need to abide by the license of the original game or the GPL engine, unless you went and signed a different license with them including if you wanted to sell anything derived from their work.
So you can't buy it, but you can play it, and the source is available. Is this really a problem? I know the article mentions this in passing, but preservation & the ability to actually play a 25 year old game is more important than its capitalization, IMO.
Well, no, you can't play it because the source code doesn't include assets like the 3d models and textures and levels and sound files. You need to acquire those some other way if you want to build a playable version of the game.
It's like GZDoom, you have to supply your own copy of DOOM.WAD
I'm in the speedrunning community[0] for NOLF and just want to chime in on the amazing work that haekb did (I believe the "community-driven project" is only them) for these games[1]. They made both NOLF and NOLF2 a lot more accessible to people casually picking up the game, as there was a lot of jank and configuration needed otherwise to get the games running in a good way on modern systems. In addition to fixing jank, they actually fixed tons of bugs and added other QoL and fun stuff like a jukebox in the menus to listen to the (great) soundtrack. Some stuff - like how if you have certain USB devices connected, the game will just flip out - still remains, but that's just a part of the _voodoo_ with old games like these.
Fixing bugs and stuff is nice, but a lot of the fun speedrunning tech we depend on was also fixed, and they were kind enough to create a separate "lithfix" that only made the games playable on modern systems and left the in-game bugs intact. Not only that, but they also added a dev console and fixed some of the old cheat codes, which made it so that we could finally noclip around to inspect the maps properly and toggle on hitboxes, etc.
It's incredible the impact a single individual can have. They never asked for anything back, and now their work is even included by default on the "unofficial" download page. Even though I don't speedrun anymore (maybe one day!) I'll always be grateful for that :)
The game holds up incredibly well - beautiful scenery, fun story, some of the best and most humorous dialogue in any game ever[2], and a really strong and well-written female main character. Would strongly recommend anyone to pick it up, just know that some parts struggle a bit with the "stealth", and expect (and embrace) "going loud" at times. But do try to stealth a lot, as you're nicely rewarded with brilliant dialogue! NOLF2 is fun too, but very different - definitely worth a play through though!
They're also very fun speedrun games, and the community is very helpful to anyone, even if you're just wanting to play it casually :)
Edit: Forgot to mention that they also fixed the multiplayer in NOLF2, and some people still play sometimes! More info on this page[3]
There should be some kind of "challenge" process where people can demand that rightsholders "put up or shut up", or lose their work to the public domain. Right now, we have a perverse incentive where publishers are incentivized to say they DO NOT own a work, in hopes that someone will do all the work of making some derivative work and then they can swoop in and demand rent. There should be a way to say "we asked for proof, they didn't respond, so our ass is covered here, go pound rocks, Warner Brothers, Activision, and/or 20th Century Fox".
Obviously this would only apply to things that sold above a certain number of units, making it something of cultural relevance. We also don't want this law abused to steal things if someone gets a copy of your dropbox files and you can't afford a lawyer to respond to legal demands.
I would instead reduce the duration of copyright protection. Not an expert by any means, but my gut feeling is that in the case of art like books, movies, songs, videgames etc. the right-holders make most of the money in the first 10 years after release. If you're interested in a book, movie, or videogame, you will not wait 10 years to get it for free; you would still pay for it. So I think the duration of copyright should be reduced to circa 10 years, maybe 20 if we want to be generous to the right-holders, but no more than that.
I struggle to understand why the (potential?) rights-holders are so intransigent about this.
If a company came up to me and said "We have interest in reviving an IP of yours. We will take on the development costs, we will take on all the risk, all you have to do is say yes and you will get a fixed percentage of every sale"--that seems like an easy win-win, does it not? The only reasons I would imagine you would say NO were if:
1) Concern that the company will do a crappy job and tarnish the brand's reputation (which, fair, but Nightreign studios and/or GOG seem to have a pretty solid track record on this)
2) Your company's bean-counters are both so greedy and risk-averse such that their thinking is, "We only wish to allow something if it will be a guaranteed hit...but if it is a guaranteed hit, we want to do it internally so that we get to keep all of the profits!" In which case, the requirements are almost impossible to satisfy, since there is inevitably some level of risk undertaken during the remaster/re-release effort.
I think it's basically just "this is complicated, complicated means corporate lawyers, corporate lawyers are expensive enough and the potential profit is small enough that it's not worth it." It's not just "will this be net positive," either. There's an opportunity cost. Those corporate lawyers are needed for other important projects that might make more money.
But also, I kind of think it becomes a thing where it's too small potatoes for anybody senior enough to actually approve all of the legal stuff to care enough to make happen. Sure, it's basically free money, but it's not a lot of free money.
I agree with your points and would add one more: the TFA gives a second-hand recounting of what the various company's lawyers supposedly told the potential reboot licensor and quotes the erstwhile licensor's conclusion they were basically threatening legal action. But this isn't consistent with the companies also indicating they weren't sure what rights they may have (if any).
However, it IS consistent with a thing prudent lawyers would typically do when discussing an unknown future hypothetical. They'd reserve their client's rights should the client later discover they have grounds and wish to pursue it. Depending on how it's phrased, that could be confused with a 'legal threat', but I suspect the lawyers may have just been careful to not unintentionally relinquish any future rights.
I'm basing this on being involved in similar licensing discussions between lawyers. While some lawyers and clients are assholes, not all are. Even if they were trying to be 'good guys', it's not clear they could be in this situation. Since they don't even know if they have any rights, they don't have grounds to grant any kind of permission (and doing so in the absence of having any rights could make their client liable - at least in theory).
Also, it's not clear who actually owns the thing -- the original game was developed by Monolith Productions and published by Fox Interactive (PC) and Sierra (PS2). Following the tree of deals, there's a bunch of different big corporations that could have a claim on the IP:
- Fox Interactive was eventually sold to Vivendi, but most of their library was listed as owned by 20th Century Fox, which has since been acquired by Disney
- the second and third games in the series were published by Sierra, who over the years have been owned by Comp-U-Card, Vivendi, Activision, and eventually Microsoft
- Monolith Productions were eventually purchased by Warner Bros., who shut the studio down earlier this year
Just from that list, there's a huge list of media conglomerates that could have an ownership claim: News Corp, Disney, Vivendi, Warner Bros., Microsoft
Many of these get stuck in contract hell. The original developer may have had licensed software or assets and at the very least needs to find the agreements and understand how they work for new distribution. It's not uncommon for those agreements to have been time limited, but if you want to renew now you need to find the current successor/rightsholder and negotiate.
Also, the developer/publisher/distributor/etc may have had revenue sharing agreements with various parties. Those need to be found and understood too. Sometimes those are in % of gross income, % of net income, % of sales price, or a fixed amount per copy sold. If anything needs addressing, you've got to find those parties or their successors and negotiate. You should also find those parties anyway, to pay royalties they're due, but if you at least set up an escrow account, you'll be prepared when they find you.
I would hope games contracts are a bit more forward looking now, and try to address these things, but 25 years ago, you would still get old games at computer surplus stores... A handful of developers would put out old games collections, but most games never came back.
I imagine there is a legal/admin cost, to locating the paper contract in Iron Mountain/wherever. So if they wait for the game to go ahead anyways, they could wait and see if its a smashing success, then sue and have a budget for tracking the docs down. Perhaps a lawyer could explain if sending a “cough up the docs in 60 days or we are invalidating your claim” would work.
See, there's the difference. You, as a sole person, can easily decide giving permission or not. But they, as a group of employees, contain not a single one whose job description is "give away stuff". There isn't some keeper of the back catalogue who could confidently say "yeah, no problem". Who knows, perhaps some skunkwors division has just sunk a few million into reviving the IP. It all falls up towards the CEO and that level is rarely bothered with pittances like some inherited old license. And chances are even they would not dare, because ultimately they aren't the owner, their employer is and who knows what they would like to happen to the IP
Game Publishers hoard IP like Smaug. I can't even begin to catalog the IP's in the EA, UBI, and Activision's vaults. In many cases, the original creators can't even get the time of day to ask to use the IP.
3. They believe the IP may have potential that you won't exploit to the fullest.
In other words, they believe that they may be able to do more than you with it, if they ever get around to it.
If your potential market is tiny--and lets be honest, the market for an unpirated version of this is quite small,most people sufficiently interested have pirated it already--then keeping it out of the public in favor of some unknown potential later is a consideration.
What companies hear is, in effect, “Please make it easier for me to create a competing product and take away business from your existing IP:s that you are trying to create mindshare for.”
We just saw an explosion of streaming platforms because of their version of 2). Instead of continuing to license to Netflix for a percentage, they decided to spend all of the time/money to develop their own streaming platforms in hopes of keeping all of the proceeds. Maybe they have internal dialog looking at this same comparison which has not settled out yet. The streaming platforms have shown rolling your own is not a guaranteed panacea.
> I struggle to understand why the (potential?) rights-holders are so intransigent about this.
> you will get a fixed percentage of every sale"--that seems like an easy win-win, does it not?
It's really not an easy win-win. Entertainment falls into the attention economy, so if you're giving rights to some low-value IP away for pennies but it winds up getting popular, that's lost revenue elsewhere that might be more valuable.
On top of that these media corporations are borderline militant with defending their vaults of IP because it's the only way to distinguish themselves in a crowded landscape. Exclusivity is essentially the only way they can compete, and giving away rights for peanuts is not in their interest.
These companies default to saying "no" and when you add in the complexity of finding documents that may not exist, it's not hard to see why it'll never happen.
> If a company, or group of companies, won’t offer a piece of work for sale, can’t be bothered to understand what they own of it, if anything, and have no plans to figure any of that out… then how can this be copyright infringement?
The answer to the question in the quote is: "It's not until someone wins a lawsuit."
The federal government recognizes, and will protect through legal enforcement, an exclusive right of the intellectual property holder to control its distribution.
Copyright infringement only occurs when a court rules that it has because that is the only mechanism through which intellectual property holders can claim a legal right. It is not a "natural right".
Streaming from a "piracy" site is effectively legal for the viewer because they are not infringing on any distribution or resell rights (but the hoster is). If Netflix is mistakenly giving access to all seasons of a show when it only paid for the latest one, how could anyone call the unknowing viewer who is watching Season 1 a pirate?
"Abandonware" pushes this idea even further: as long as there is no reasonable expectation of a successful infringement case being brought against anyone then distribution is also without consequence. Perhaps there is a statue of limitations that might definitive codify this or a "defend or lose it" stipulation as exists with trademarks.
It isn’t that they don’t have the documents, it’s that they don’t know if they have the documents and they’re not going to bother to look until there’s a reason to. If someone made the game, presumably they’d call up Iron Mountain and start digging.
Making a game is enough of an investment that you wouldn’t do it if you knew you had a high likelihood of being sued by legitimate rights holders as soon as you started making the news. Digging through paper records from decades ago is enough of an investment that you wouldn’t do it unless you had a reason to also.
That is the gap in the argument of the parent. At least in the US already the threat to sue for copyright infringement has almost such a strong impact as a won lawsuit. You can also see that with things like the DMCA. This is often adhered to, even in ridiculous cases.
A "defend or lose it" rule would have bad consequences, I suspect, except for certain types of lawyer who might benefit enormously.
I think it might be better if the recipient of such vague threats were able to themselves initiate a court case to clarify the matter. The party making vague threats might be ordered by the court to either produce their evidence within six months or give up their claim by granting a public licence or whatever.
But it's hard to see all the consequences of rules like that and there are plenty of lobbyists able and willing to provide bad advice to legislators.
You say “unknowing” as if that’s a defense, but last I check you could still be charged with a crime even without being aware of it before hand. The punishment would likely be more lenient if you can convince the judge effectively that you had no knowledge, but you’re still going to court if caught.
The reason the viewer in your example is not liable though is because there is no reasonable expectation that viewers should (or even could) verify that Netflix held the rights to season 1. The license that the viewer has to access any media is between them and Netflix, not between them and each individual media rights-holding company.
Not a tangent – this is exactly the point I was trying to make but perhaps did not do so as clearly as you did. The infringement is always about distribution, not consumption.
No one has the right to someone else's IP. If Disney decides to pull all their shows and shut down then there could be no legal way to watch it other than pre-existing DVDs/BluRay.
The issue at hand is the absence of a legal owner. It should fall into a commons for public use until someone can prove ownership. Eg. abandonware.
I normally agree, but in this case the three companies in question aren't refusing to sell, they're threatening to sue if someone does anything with something that they have no idea if they even have rights to.
If nobody has the de facto rights, them there's nobody to steal it from.
It's not stealing if you make a copy and no-one is deprived of their copy. I hate the way the copyright holders have pushed the "copying is theft" narrative so much that people have internalised it.
I remember buying NOLF--it was at retail, in a big box off the shelf at Media Play. I knew nothing about it, it just caught my eye, and the description on the back sounded interesting. I miss that kind of media discovery, our modern always-online world tends to smother serendipity.
It was an excellent game. The idea of a continuation of the series is appealing, but a lot of modern adaptations really stink, so maybe it's better off in the amber of nostalgia.
I miss that kind of media discovery, our modern always-online world tends to smother serendipity.
I don't really miss the time of having to choose games this way. If you lucked out it was great, but you were also potentially putting down upwards of $50+ bucks in 1995 dollars on a game that you might end up really disliking.
Exaggeration warning, but as someone who has indeed spent a bunch of money on games I ended up disliking, I find our current-day inability to cope with disappointment kind of sad.
Sometimes we buy something we don't like, but it's on us, and that's just life.
At some point I think we just took the "satisfied or your money back" mentality too far.
Edit: note this doesn't absolve actual scammers or other bad actors from being crappy people though.
You can still do this. I regularily go to used game shops looking for old console games just based off the box art. They range from $1 - $5 so it's not much lost if the game ends up bad. I make sure to not search for reviews or more info. It's always a fun surprise.
I did discover a lot of great stuff like that. The funny thing is that there were a few titles that I discovered, absolutely loved and yet apparently were considered bad games. Oh well, I saw the good side of it.
One that I grabbed for $10 was Adrenix, a 'Descent' clone that has very few mentions around and reviewed fairly averagely. I loved it!
As for modern adaptions of games, if they can do it either like 3D Realms retro style like with Ion Fury, or go into the full re-imagined space like they did with Doom 2016. But any middle ground seems to lead to disappointment.
> I miss that kind of media discovery, our modern always-online world tends to smother serendipity.
I miss it too. I used to read computer game magazines as a kid. I recently re-evoked that feeling by subscribing to a linux magazine. Maybe there are still game magazines out there but i’m too lazy to look.
So what's the mvp to qualify as a copyright-infringing game? Because what I'm hearing is that we need one brave soldier to put up a unity asset swap called NOLF 3: Return of the NOLF and wait for the court documents to roll in(or not), right?
And if nobody manages to prove ownership, would the ip land in the public domain or with the asset-swapper? Because if it's the latter, that'd change the risk-reward ratio quite a bit.
That Bobby Banilla story is nuts. So instead of paying $5.9m in 2000, the Mets decided to defer the payments for 11 years! And also to stretch them out over 25 years! Didn't the Mets realise that just paying the full amount (with interest) 2 or 3 years later cost them a lot less. On the other hand, $1.1m is probably peanuts in terms of Mets expenses these days.
That's a good article for some depth into his career and argues he wasn't overpaid for his career performance. Doesn't go into the deal. This article claims the Mets deferred Bonilla's pay so they could invest more money into Madoff's ponzi scheme: https://www.espn.com.au/mlb/story/_/id/31256115/bernie-madof...
This wouldn't be an issue if copyright expired after 10 years, which seems like a reasonable length to me.
Or if a work going out of "print" (or equivalent depending on thee medium) some limited number of years forfeits the copyright.
This common situation where a work is still protected by copyright, but isn't available for purchase and it isn't even feasible to determine who currently holds the copyright is just not ok.
Copyright kills works when rights cannot be negotiated, usually because the rights holder is not to be found, but in this case because the situation is just "complicated".
When Microsoft was first looking to do a remaster of Goldeneye from N64, even they couldn't manage the legal trouble of that one.
Microsoft had the original development team, Nintendo had the software and Activision had the James Bond License. Microsoft was willing to develop it for both Xbox 360 and Wii but they simply couldn't get the rights between all three straightened out.
If those three, companies that are no strangers to handling legal issues cannot figure out, it doesn't look good for smaller titles like this.
I've long thought copyright should only apply if the work is available for sale, or they are actively preparing another printing so they can sell it again in the near future.
Then there would be digital stores where old works go to die. Which might be better than now if price was reasonable and support good. But could easily be expensive, unsupported, and goes after pirates.
Authors already have problems with getting their books back when out of print. Ebooks make it worse cause they can stay in print with low effort.
I like idea of copyright with short span, like 10 years, and then have to register and renew for every subsequent decade. That would give registry of owners who are serious about work. Would never see public domain movies, but there are lots of obscure works that would be public domain.
Copyrights should have a similar schedule to patents. The first period of coverage is no-cost but subsequent renewals increase in price, perpetual copyright should be financially ruinous but copyright should exist so a creator of a work can profit off it for a reasonable duration.
It's one thing when a work disappears because no one owns it or no one cares but it's even more frustrating when the rights do exist, yet the legal spaghetti around them is so tangled that nobody can or will do anything
I loved NOLF and NOLF2. I was actually thinking about pulling them off the shelf and loading them up again the other day. I had no idea that the rights around them was such a mess.
This was a fun series of games. They are especially fun if you've watched some of the source material they're constantly referencing and alluding to, like The Man From U.N.C.L.E. (the 1960s one, not the 2010s movie), Get Smart, etc. Still holds up.
So say someone decides to produce a remaster of NOLF. Does Activision have to produce this piece of paper once they sue to establish standing? If Activision's version of this piece of paper was chewed up by rats in the 90s, does their ownership stake vanish in a puff as well?
If the potential victory from a lawsuit is $20K and Activision estimates it will cost them $50K to find this piece of paper, is the company relatively safe from a lawsuit?
They would need to prove that they have the rights to it to win court, yes. The chances of Activision actually pulling the trigger and suing if you made a remastered version are definitely less than 50-50. They'd have to actually have owned the rights in the first place, they still have the documentation to prove it, and that they'd find a suit a profitable idea? Let's say it's a 1/3 chance. That means if you publish it, you'd have a 2/3 chance of not getting sued by Activision, that can have a positive E(V) if you just go ahead and YOLO it.
But the killer is that WB and Fox (now Disney) also are sitting out there as maybe rights-holders. Let's say that each of them also has a 1/3 chance of suing and that they are all independent. Now you have a 8/27th chance of not getting sued- less than 1/3. So the expected value has to be twice as large as with a normal, single company situation to justify the increased risk of lawsuit from one of three companies. And so no one pencils out the choice as a good one, compared to the opportunity cost of working on some other game with a clearer rights situation.
It is reasonably sure that each party has a 90% chance of suing if they have rights. There is a 90% chance someone will send you a cease and desist just because all 3 are the type that will do it if they think they have rights. There is a reasonable chance more than 1 will send a cease and desist (some weaselly "we are still checking rights but if we have them your notice starts now - just enough to avoid fraud if it turns out they don't have rights)
Why would you set the probability at 1/3rd? It feels closer to 1/100 at most.
They've admitted the documents, if they're anywhere, are buried in a file cabinet at Iron Mountain. You can set a lower limit on the amount of labor required to produce the document. Activision is not going to go on this quest if the labor required * chance of the document existing exceeds the amount they can win in a lawsuit.
It feels like the right thing to do is to preemptively sue all three for a declaratory judgement, similar to obtaining a "quiet title" for a piece of real estate. Then they can put up or shut up. The right thing to do if you're trying to remaster the game, that is. The right thing to do if you just want to play it is to pirate.
> Does Activision have to produce this piece of paper once they sue to establish standing?
Yes, but see below.
> If Activision's version of this piece of paper was chewed up by rats in the 90s, does their ownership stake vanish in a puff as well?
No, but complex. Legally the contract is still valid, but they still need to show the court what the details are. All parties to a contracts get a copy, and so Activation can legally force other people who should have a copy of the contract to produce it, any copy is enough (or several partially rat eaten copies may be enough to reproduce what the original said). Activision has all the time they want to find copies of the contract (unlike trademark, copyright isn't use it or lose it), so you are risking the above for a long time. Sometimes enough testimony in court of we did have a contract is enough - when it is obvious there must have been a contract at one time the court will put together obvious details which might be enough to sue. In this case the 3 parties can agree that while they don't know who as rights between the 3 of them the rights must be contained and so they can agree to a 3-way split for purposes of going to court - even if it latter turns out only one party had rights, that party agreed to the split (though if you years latter can prove a 4th party has rights they can sue the other 3).
Of course if rats did eat all copies of the contract the lawyer fees to figure this out are likely more than the game is worth and so it probably isn't worthwhile to sue, so practically it may be as if they no longer have rights to the game just because they can't afford to enforce it. This is a very risky take though and so nobody should risk it.
> This is a very risky take though and so nobody should risk it.
People keep on insisting when it comes to these things that various things are risky in a rather handwavey way but they never fully come out and articulate the risks.
I asked this question to ChatGPT a bunch of ways and tried to understand what the specifics are when people say this is risky and I can't really seem to get to anything that is a nuclear level risk, just a garden variety risk that you need to manage amongst all the other garden variety risks involved in running a business (when inputted with a reasonable set of realistic assumptions, it's possible to create assumptions where this is a nuclear level risk but that doesn't seem to apply to the majority of real world cases, including this one).
Makes me wonder if a good way to "reign in" on copyright abuse and abandonware is to require copyright holders to pay a tax based on some kind of formula.
More importantly: If no tax is paid, after a reasonable amount of time, (1-3 years,) the work is considered abandoned and automatically moved to the public domain.
Even more importantly, if the work isn't available for general consumption (rental and physical), at a reasonable cost, without a subscription / ads, no copyright claims can be perused for non-commercial piracy. (IE, it would become totally legal to torrent a TV show if it's stuck in a streaming service that requires ads / a subscription.)
Georgism [1] but applied to copyright: If you want to extend your copyright past, say, 15 or 20 years, then you need to estimate the value of that copyright and pay tax on it. You can name any value you want, but someone can then buy it at that value.
Maybe there can be different rules for copyrights owned by humans vs corporations; 5 years free for corporations, 20 years free for humans. Or maybe longer for humans, I dunno. But having corporations sit on IP just because they can is ridiculous.
I only played the first one, because the second one was more finnicky and required newer hardware. But I must say, NOLF 1 is one of the best and most unique FPS games ever. It should be far, far more famous than it is.
Copyright (and all intellectual property in general) should have a "use it or lose it" provision, just like trademarks. If there's a piece of software that you own but aren't interested in selling or maintaining then someone else should be able to do it without asking for your permission. Simple as that.
So if I write a piece of software that does the job I designed it for, and you decide you want it to do something else, you should be handed the source code and right to redistribute it? Simple like that?
On the other hand, how the heck are they claiming to own any of that if they can't even produce the paperwork. A big enough developer would be able to remaster the game just enough to provoke a lawsuit from the "rights holders" and that would be the place to cross-check whether there's any meat in the deal. If they can't prove they actually own the rights, they can't sue. If they can, then they can sell/license it to the developer. Obviously this won't work for a small, independent actor because it's all going drown in the noise of legal billing.
I've always maintained that if we must have copyright then it should be something like a trademark where you have to actively defend it to keep it valid. If you have the "rights" to a piece of music, movie or game then, to validate the copyright's original purpose, you will have to actively exercise those rights to make gains from the "intellectual property". Copyright does not promote innovation if you're not required to gain from your creation: if you're just keeping your work in a drawer there's no point in granting you a temporary monopoly over the right to copy the work.
I feel the reality is that if you own something, it's up to you to do what you want with it. I worry about, despite initial first-order good intentions, introducing strident limits on property such as being tossed about in this discussion.
People are talking about putting somewhat severe, I think, limitations on ownership and property. Are you sure you want these limitations? Fairness under law means if it applies to a game, it also applies to you and what you own. Hot takes on the topic don't seem to have fully thought through the implications on that (tho I do understand people's feelings on the matter).
Hot take: If no one knows who has the rights to sell it, no one knows who has the rights to stop someone else from selling it. There'd be a legal battle. For a game like this, its probably not worth it. But I bet by the end of it we'd figure it out.
You could figure it out, but if you're the one getting sued, it's going to cost you a lot of money to pay their lawyers to prove that you didn't have the rights, and someone else did.
The reality is that the vast majority of entertainment is ephemeral. A videogame or movie get it's 5 minutes of fame.
There are a few weirdos like me who want to play a 20 year old videogame but how much money can you get out of that and is it worth the trouble?
The modern copyright is having the opposite effect of what the founding Fathers had intended. The copyright was meant to provide protection and income to an author's family in the event of his death. Then after a reasonable time, the book passes into public domain for posterity. But today the copyright has an unreasonable time. A time that was for family to live on now has become a time for corporations to squeeze. Copyright law has become weaponized filled with landmines.
Now instead, works become inaccessible, out of print, and forgotten by the time it becomes public domain. The cult following, the fans, and the curious have long died out, leaving the work to pass into the abyss to join the works in the Library of Alexandria.
But seriously, the way the copyright system prevents people from preserving and re-experiencing works as soon as the "rightful owner" stops caring about them is a travesty. I say that when an IP becomes orphaned, stops being claimed by a new rights-holder, or some time after it stops being sold/used, it should be forcibly removed from the grip of copyright and opened up for everyone to use. Otherwise, we're heading to a world where only a slim subset of well-performing properties are being offered, while the rest lie in a gigantic graveyard of things-someone-owns-but-will-never-use instead of being potentially put to use by someone who would actually care.
this is true of a lot of indy films...I remember a talk by this one director, Joe Swanberg, who mentioned a lot of his early movies are in limbo and unwatchable because no one can figure out who has the rights...
So they can't release a sequel, but they could make a new game that has suspiciously similar vibes and call it "Some people eventually dies or something".
One downside is it would motivate companies to get intellectual property registered under a trademark with indefinite protection rather than copyright. Even with our current lifetime + 70 year protection we have companies like Disney getting characters registered as a trademark.
No, the opposite. To be protected by copyright, sources must be uploaded to a Library of Software.
Downside: Movies will be made to not last; Software will be made to be incompatible with everything on a 10-year timeframe; and the country who enabled this open mindset will displease its copyright owners who will move to the other countries.
I'm torn about whether I'd want a direct continuation. It has similarities to the changing tone of the spy shows/movies and their satires that inspired it in that things change over time, and the reception to the feminism angle would be different now. A sequel would likely mean moving the time period on again which has additional challenges.
I could definitely see starting over with a reboot, which would also give the studio involved a chance to dodge all the rights issues by doing a 'spiritual successor' and renaming everything. 25 years later you're likely trying to attract newcomers much more than you are fans of the old games that want specifically more NOLF. I'd also be interested in a cold war era spy thriller that played it straight, real spy history has a lot to pull from that could be weaved into an intriguing story to play through, and NOLF did touch on some of the issues around spying like taking advantage of people.
off topic: My goodness, anyone feel the UI/UX of the website to be really refreshing? I've lately been digging compact/industrialized looking UI vs 'touch'/comfort view that take up way too much real estate.
Not that interesting really as this is about people wanting to play an excellent old game but there is no legal method to do so due to the actions of corporations. With AI, the corporations are hoovering up lots of copyright content so that it can be "repackaged" as AI output without wanting to attempt to do so legally.
Any content, once published/distributed/broadcast in the US, that is not made readily available to the public going forward loses copyright protection. This includes revisions.
* A film, TV show, sound recording, book, or any other copyrighted content must, once made available for public purchase, always remain available. If the only streaming service willing to pay to stream your movie has the smallest market share, too bad; the market has spoken on the value of your content. An ebook can fulfill this purpose for a print book; streaming can fulfill this purpose for a theatrical or physical-media film. But it must be available to maintain copyright.
* Compulsory licensing should apply; if Netflix wants to pay the same amount of money as the above-mentioned small market-share streaming service for the film, Netflix must be allowed to do so. The film's rights owner can demand more, raising the price for all, but if every outlet refuses, the film immediately goes into public domain. This process is reversible, but it would set a ceiling to prevent the owner from setting a ridiculously high price to prevent its availability.
* If a Blu-ray of a film or TV show has excised or modified scenes for whatever reason, and the original isn't also made available (whether on a different "theatrical cut" release, or as a different cut on the same disc), the entire original version immediately goes into public domain.
* If NBC posts Saturday Night Live skits on YouTube that have removed "problematic" scenes[1] without explaining the differences—a diff file, basically—the entire original skit loses copyright protection.
Separate issue, but also very worthwhile:
* Streaming services must make all data regarding their content available in some standardized format. Consumers should be able to use one application to access all content they have access to. The creator of SmartTube (a very nice YouTube-compatible player) should be able to add the appropriate API support to search for and play Netflix/Prime Video/Disney+/Paramount+ content.
The above applies to software, too. Legalize abandonware!
NOLF is actually source-available [0][1][2], and it has been since not that long after its original release.
There's also a community-driven project [3] keeping it playable on modern hardware - however, it hasn't seen any activity in several years.
If you haven't played or heard of NOLF before, I highly encourage checking it out. It's a fantastic title, even after all these years.
0: https://web.archive.org/web/20020217233624/http://pc.ign.com...
1: https://web.archive.org/web/20010720053220/http://noonelives...
2: https://github.com/osgcc/no-one-lives-forever
3: https://github.com/haekb/nolf1-modernizer
The source is only partially available; they released the source code of the game logic, but the engine was not included in the source release. You'd need to reverse engineer & remake the engine to make any major improvements to the game, such as porting it to new platforms.
This sounds like how most moddable games of the era released their SDKs. You could make a mod that changed gameplay and/or assets, but you needed the needed the original game itself for the engine and original assets as a foundation/runtime. One step further would be a 'total conversion' that replaced all the assets but you still needed the engine, and then you get later releases like the id GPL releases of the engine so you could have engine+gameplay+content all by yourself. Even then you'd still need to abide by the license of the original game or the GPL engine, unless you went and signed a different license with them including if you wanted to sell anything derived from their work.
So you can't buy it, but you can play it, and the source is available. Is this really a problem? I know the article mentions this in passing, but preservation & the ability to actually play a 25 year old game is more important than its capitalization, IMO.
Well, no, you can't play it because the source code doesn't include assets like the 3d models and textures and levels and sound files. You need to acquire those some other way if you want to build a playable version of the game.
It's like GZDoom, you have to supply your own copy of DOOM.WAD
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They do mention that you can pirate it. But that is kind of the point of the article, the only way to play the game is to break the law.
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I'm in the speedrunning community[0] for NOLF and just want to chime in on the amazing work that haekb did (I believe the "community-driven project" is only them) for these games[1]. They made both NOLF and NOLF2 a lot more accessible to people casually picking up the game, as there was a lot of jank and configuration needed otherwise to get the games running in a good way on modern systems. In addition to fixing jank, they actually fixed tons of bugs and added other QoL and fun stuff like a jukebox in the menus to listen to the (great) soundtrack. Some stuff - like how if you have certain USB devices connected, the game will just flip out - still remains, but that's just a part of the _voodoo_ with old games like these.
Fixing bugs and stuff is nice, but a lot of the fun speedrunning tech we depend on was also fixed, and they were kind enough to create a separate "lithfix" that only made the games playable on modern systems and left the in-game bugs intact. Not only that, but they also added a dev console and fixed some of the old cheat codes, which made it so that we could finally noclip around to inspect the maps properly and toggle on hitboxes, etc.
It's incredible the impact a single individual can have. They never asked for anything back, and now their work is even included by default on the "unofficial" download page. Even though I don't speedrun anymore (maybe one day!) I'll always be grateful for that :)
The game holds up incredibly well - beautiful scenery, fun story, some of the best and most humorous dialogue in any game ever[2], and a really strong and well-written female main character. Would strongly recommend anyone to pick it up, just know that some parts struggle a bit with the "stealth", and expect (and embrace) "going loud" at times. But do try to stealth a lot, as you're nicely rewarded with brilliant dialogue! NOLF2 is fun too, but very different - definitely worth a play through though!
They're also very fun speedrun games, and the community is very helpful to anyone, even if you're just wanting to play it casually :)
Edit: Forgot to mention that they also fixed the multiplayer in NOLF2, and some people still play sometimes! More info on this page[3]
[0]: https://www.speedrun.com/nolf <-- you'll find a link to the game here as well
[1]: https://haekb.itch.io/ <-- here you'll find all the lithtech stuff they made
[2]: https://youtu.be/q2PxxbJydBU <-- this is just one of many examples
[3]: https://spawnsite.net/
There should be some kind of "challenge" process where people can demand that rightsholders "put up or shut up", or lose their work to the public domain. Right now, we have a perverse incentive where publishers are incentivized to say they DO NOT own a work, in hopes that someone will do all the work of making some derivative work and then they can swoop in and demand rent. There should be a way to say "we asked for proof, they didn't respond, so our ass is covered here, go pound rocks, Warner Brothers, Activision, and/or 20th Century Fox".
Obviously this would only apply to things that sold above a certain number of units, making it something of cultural relevance. We also don't want this law abused to steal things if someone gets a copy of your dropbox files and you can't afford a lawyer to respond to legal demands.
I would instead reduce the duration of copyright protection. Not an expert by any means, but my gut feeling is that in the case of art like books, movies, songs, videgames etc. the right-holders make most of the money in the first 10 years after release. If you're interested in a book, movie, or videogame, you will not wait 10 years to get it for free; you would still pay for it. So I think the duration of copyright should be reduced to circa 10 years, maybe 20 if we want to be generous to the right-holders, but no more than that.
I struggle to understand why the (potential?) rights-holders are so intransigent about this.
If a company came up to me and said "We have interest in reviving an IP of yours. We will take on the development costs, we will take on all the risk, all you have to do is say yes and you will get a fixed percentage of every sale"--that seems like an easy win-win, does it not? The only reasons I would imagine you would say NO were if:
1) Concern that the company will do a crappy job and tarnish the brand's reputation (which, fair, but Nightreign studios and/or GOG seem to have a pretty solid track record on this)
2) Your company's bean-counters are both so greedy and risk-averse such that their thinking is, "We only wish to allow something if it will be a guaranteed hit...but if it is a guaranteed hit, we want to do it internally so that we get to keep all of the profits!" In which case, the requirements are almost impossible to satisfy, since there is inevitably some level of risk undertaken during the remaster/re-release effort.
I think it's basically just "this is complicated, complicated means corporate lawyers, corporate lawyers are expensive enough and the potential profit is small enough that it's not worth it." It's not just "will this be net positive," either. There's an opportunity cost. Those corporate lawyers are needed for other important projects that might make more money.
But also, I kind of think it becomes a thing where it's too small potatoes for anybody senior enough to actually approve all of the legal stuff to care enough to make happen. Sure, it's basically free money, but it's not a lot of free money.
I agree with your points and would add one more: the TFA gives a second-hand recounting of what the various company's lawyers supposedly told the potential reboot licensor and quotes the erstwhile licensor's conclusion they were basically threatening legal action. But this isn't consistent with the companies also indicating they weren't sure what rights they may have (if any).
However, it IS consistent with a thing prudent lawyers would typically do when discussing an unknown future hypothetical. They'd reserve their client's rights should the client later discover they have grounds and wish to pursue it. Depending on how it's phrased, that could be confused with a 'legal threat', but I suspect the lawyers may have just been careful to not unintentionally relinquish any future rights.
I'm basing this on being involved in similar licensing discussions between lawyers. While some lawyers and clients are assholes, not all are. Even if they were trying to be 'good guys', it's not clear they could be in this situation. Since they don't even know if they have any rights, they don't have grounds to grant any kind of permission (and doing so in the absence of having any rights could make their client liable - at least in theory).
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Also, it's not clear who actually owns the thing -- the original game was developed by Monolith Productions and published by Fox Interactive (PC) and Sierra (PS2). Following the tree of deals, there's a bunch of different big corporations that could have a claim on the IP:
- Fox Interactive was eventually sold to Vivendi, but most of their library was listed as owned by 20th Century Fox, which has since been acquired by Disney
- the second and third games in the series were published by Sierra, who over the years have been owned by Comp-U-Card, Vivendi, Activision, and eventually Microsoft
- Monolith Productions were eventually purchased by Warner Bros., who shut the studio down earlier this year
Just from that list, there's a huge list of media conglomerates that could have an ownership claim: News Corp, Disney, Vivendi, Warner Bros., Microsoft
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The potential that you spend the money/time just to end up proving that you don't own it is I think the main blocker.
Many of these get stuck in contract hell. The original developer may have had licensed software or assets and at the very least needs to find the agreements and understand how they work for new distribution. It's not uncommon for those agreements to have been time limited, but if you want to renew now you need to find the current successor/rightsholder and negotiate.
Also, the developer/publisher/distributor/etc may have had revenue sharing agreements with various parties. Those need to be found and understood too. Sometimes those are in % of gross income, % of net income, % of sales price, or a fixed amount per copy sold. If anything needs addressing, you've got to find those parties or their successors and negotiate. You should also find those parties anyway, to pay royalties they're due, but if you at least set up an escrow account, you'll be prepared when they find you.
I would hope games contracts are a bit more forward looking now, and try to address these things, but 25 years ago, you would still get old games at computer surplus stores... A handful of developers would put out old games collections, but most games never came back.
I imagine there is a legal/admin cost, to locating the paper contract in Iron Mountain/wherever. So if they wait for the game to go ahead anyways, they could wait and see if its a smashing success, then sue and have a budget for tracking the docs down. Perhaps a lawyer could explain if sending a “cough up the docs in 60 days or we are invalidating your claim” would work.
"If a company came up to me"
See, there's the difference. You, as a sole person, can easily decide giving permission or not. But they, as a group of employees, contain not a single one whose job description is "give away stuff". There isn't some keeper of the back catalogue who could confidently say "yeah, no problem". Who knows, perhaps some skunkwors division has just sunk a few million into reviving the IP. It all falls up towards the CEO and that level is rarely bothered with pittances like some inherited old license. And chances are even they would not dare, because ultimately they aren't the owner, their employer is and who knows what they would like to happen to the IP
Game Publishers hoard IP like Smaug. I can't even begin to catalog the IP's in the EA, UBI, and Activision's vaults. In many cases, the original creators can't even get the time of day to ask to use the IP.
3. They believe the IP may have potential that you won't exploit to the fullest.
In other words, they believe that they may be able to do more than you with it, if they ever get around to it.
If your potential market is tiny--and lets be honest, the market for an unpirated version of this is quite small,most people sufficiently interested have pirated it already--then keeping it out of the public in favor of some unknown potential later is a consideration.
But big media companies don't operate on rationality alone... they operate on bureaucracy, ego, and fear of liability
What companies hear is, in effect, “Please make it easier for me to create a competing product and take away business from your existing IP:s that you are trying to create mindshare for.”
We just saw an explosion of streaming platforms because of their version of 2). Instead of continuing to license to Netflix for a percentage, they decided to spend all of the time/money to develop their own streaming platforms in hopes of keeping all of the proceeds. Maybe they have internal dialog looking at this same comparison which has not settled out yet. The streaming platforms have shown rolling your own is not a guaranteed panacea.
They had no choice. The rational choice for Netflix would always be to verticalize and sell their own content.
> I struggle to understand why the (potential?) rights-holders are so intransigent about this.
> you will get a fixed percentage of every sale"--that seems like an easy win-win, does it not?
It's really not an easy win-win. Entertainment falls into the attention economy, so if you're giving rights to some low-value IP away for pennies but it winds up getting popular, that's lost revenue elsewhere that might be more valuable.
On top of that these media corporations are borderline militant with defending their vaults of IP because it's the only way to distinguish themselves in a crowded landscape. Exclusivity is essentially the only way they can compete, and giving away rights for peanuts is not in their interest.
These companies default to saying "no" and when you add in the complexity of finding documents that may not exist, it's not hard to see why it'll never happen.
> If a company, or group of companies, won’t offer a piece of work for sale, can’t be bothered to understand what they own of it, if anything, and have no plans to figure any of that out… then how can this be copyright infringement?
The answer to the question in the quote is: "It's not until someone wins a lawsuit."
The federal government recognizes, and will protect through legal enforcement, an exclusive right of the intellectual property holder to control its distribution.
Copyright infringement only occurs when a court rules that it has because that is the only mechanism through which intellectual property holders can claim a legal right. It is not a "natural right".
Streaming from a "piracy" site is effectively legal for the viewer because they are not infringing on any distribution or resell rights (but the hoster is). If Netflix is mistakenly giving access to all seasons of a show when it only paid for the latest one, how could anyone call the unknowing viewer who is watching Season 1 a pirate?
"Abandonware" pushes this idea even further: as long as there is no reasonable expectation of a successful infringement case being brought against anyone then distribution is also without consequence. Perhaps there is a statue of limitations that might definitive codify this or a "defend or lose it" stipulation as exists with trademarks.
If none of the company has any document to prove ownership, because according to the article they lost them, how could they win a lawsuit?
It isn’t that they don’t have the documents, it’s that they don’t know if they have the documents and they’re not going to bother to look until there’s a reason to. If someone made the game, presumably they’d call up Iron Mountain and start digging.
Making a game is enough of an investment that you wouldn’t do it if you knew you had a high likelihood of being sued by legitimate rights holders as soon as you started making the news. Digging through paper records from decades ago is enough of an investment that you wouldn’t do it unless you had a reason to also.
Classic stalemate.
That is the gap in the argument of the parent. At least in the US already the threat to sue for copyright infringement has almost such a strong impact as a won lawsuit. You can also see that with things like the DMCA. This is often adhered to, even in ridiculous cases.
A "defend or lose it" rule would have bad consequences, I suspect, except for certain types of lawyer who might benefit enormously.
I think it might be better if the recipient of such vague threats were able to themselves initiate a court case to clarify the matter. The party making vague threats might be ordered by the court to either produce their evidence within six months or give up their claim by granting a public licence or whatever.
But it's hard to see all the consequences of rules like that and there are plenty of lobbyists able and willing to provide bad advice to legislators.
You already can do this. It’s called a declaratory judgment.
You say “unknowing” as if that’s a defense, but last I check you could still be charged with a crime even without being aware of it before hand. The punishment would likely be more lenient if you can convince the judge effectively that you had no knowledge, but you’re still going to court if caught.
The reason the viewer in your example is not liable though is because there is no reasonable expectation that viewers should (or even could) verify that Netflix held the rights to season 1. The license that the viewer has to access any media is between them and Netflix, not between them and each individual media rights-holding company.
Sorry for the tangent.
Not a tangent – this is exactly the point I was trying to make but perhaps did not do so as clearly as you did. The infringement is always about distribution, not consumption.
Sooo if you don't defend it, you lose it
"It's not stealing if you refuse to sell it to me" is a pretty sketchy line of thinking in my opinion
No one has the right to someone else's IP. If Disney decides to pull all their shows and shut down then there could be no legal way to watch it other than pre-existing DVDs/BluRay.
The issue at hand is the absence of a legal owner. It should fall into a commons for public use until someone can prove ownership. Eg. abandonware.
I normally agree, but in this case the three companies in question aren't refusing to sell, they're threatening to sue if someone does anything with something that they have no idea if they even have rights to.
If nobody has the de facto rights, them there's nobody to steal it from.
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It's not stealing if you make a copy and no-one is deprived of their copy. I hate the way the copyright holders have pushed the "copying is theft" narrative so much that people have internalised it.
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Who is stealing what? Who is losing what because it was taken away? Am I stealing the Mona Lisa because I took a photo of it?
I remember buying NOLF--it was at retail, in a big box off the shelf at Media Play. I knew nothing about it, it just caught my eye, and the description on the back sounded interesting. I miss that kind of media discovery, our modern always-online world tends to smother serendipity.
It was an excellent game. The idea of a continuation of the series is appealing, but a lot of modern adaptations really stink, so maybe it's better off in the amber of nostalgia.
I miss that kind of media discovery, our modern always-online world tends to smother serendipity.
I don't really miss the time of having to choose games this way. If you lucked out it was great, but you were also potentially putting down upwards of $50+ bucks in 1995 dollars on a game that you might end up really disliking.
Exaggeration warning, but as someone who has indeed spent a bunch of money on games I ended up disliking, I find our current-day inability to cope with disappointment kind of sad.
Sometimes we buy something we don't like, but it's on us, and that's just life.
At some point I think we just took the "satisfied or your money back" mentality too far.
Edit: note this doesn't absolve actual scammers or other bad actors from being crappy people though.
Everyone I knew just rented games (and sometimes console too). You'd usually rent them for a weekend.
You can still do this. I regularily go to used game shops looking for old console games just based off the box art. They range from $1 - $5 so it's not much lost if the game ends up bad. I make sure to not search for reviews or more info. It's always a fun surprise.
I did discover a lot of great stuff like that. The funny thing is that there were a few titles that I discovered, absolutely loved and yet apparently were considered bad games. Oh well, I saw the good side of it.
One that I grabbed for $10 was Adrenix, a 'Descent' clone that has very few mentions around and reviewed fairly averagely. I loved it!
As for modern adaptions of games, if they can do it either like 3D Realms retro style like with Ion Fury, or go into the full re-imagined space like they did with Doom 2016. But any middle ground seems to lead to disappointment.
I got it as a pack-in with a video card. I didn't expect it to be anything good, being a pack-in. Talk about being wrong...
> I miss that kind of media discovery, our modern always-online world tends to smother serendipity.
I miss it too. I used to read computer game magazines as a kid. I recently re-evoked that feeling by subscribing to a linux magazine. Maybe there are still game magazines out there but i’m too lazy to look.
There is a team working on a "Spiritual Successor".
So what's the mvp to qualify as a copyright-infringing game? Because what I'm hearing is that we need one brave soldier to put up a unity asset swap called NOLF 3: Return of the NOLF and wait for the court documents to roll in(or not), right?
And if nobody manages to prove ownership, would the ip land in the public domain or with the asset-swapper? Because if it's the latter, that'd change the risk-reward ratio quite a bit.
That Bobby Banilla story is nuts. So instead of paying $5.9m in 2000, the Mets decided to defer the payments for 11 years! And also to stretch them out over 25 years! Didn't the Mets realise that just paying the full amount (with interest) 2 or 3 years later cost them a lot less. On the other hand, $1.1m is probably peanuts in terms of Mets expenses these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Bonilla
On the other hand there are claims this allowed the Mets to free up cash flow in the short term and also allowed them a draft pick in the next season.
https://ftw.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/07/01/new-yor...
The bobby bonilla contract is the stuff of legends now but nobody would care if bonilla actually lived up to expectations.
I also fell into that rabbit hole, went here: https://neilpaine.substack.com/p/classic-post-bobby-bonilla-...
Good stuff.
That's a good article for some depth into his career and argues he wasn't overpaid for his career performance. Doesn't go into the deal. This article claims the Mets deferred Bonilla's pay so they could invest more money into Madoff's ponzi scheme: https://www.espn.com.au/mlb/story/_/id/31256115/bernie-madof...
This wouldn't be an issue if copyright expired after 10 years, which seems like a reasonable length to me.
Or if a work going out of "print" (or equivalent depending on thee medium) some limited number of years forfeits the copyright.
This common situation where a work is still protected by copyright, but isn't available for purchase and it isn't even feasible to determine who currently holds the copyright is just not ok.
Copyright kills works when rights cannot be negotiated, usually because the rights holder is not to be found, but in this case because the situation is just "complicated".
When Microsoft was first looking to do a remaster of Goldeneye from N64, even they couldn't manage the legal trouble of that one.
Microsoft had the original development team, Nintendo had the software and Activision had the James Bond License. Microsoft was willing to develop it for both Xbox 360 and Wii but they simply couldn't get the rights between all three straightened out.
If those three, companies that are no strangers to handling legal issues cannot figure out, it doesn't look good for smaller titles like this.
But they did? Goldeneye for the Wii was released?
I've long thought copyright should only apply if the work is available for sale, or they are actively preparing another printing so they can sell it again in the near future.
Then there would be digital stores where old works go to die. Which might be better than now if price was reasonable and support good. But could easily be expensive, unsupported, and goes after pirates.
Authors already have problems with getting their books back when out of print. Ebooks make it worse cause they can stay in print with low effort.
I like idea of copyright with short span, like 10 years, and then have to register and renew for every subsequent decade. That would give registry of owners who are serious about work. Would never see public domain movies, but there are lots of obscure works that would be public domain.
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Copyrights should have a similar schedule to patents. The first period of coverage is no-cost but subsequent renewals increase in price, perpetual copyright should be financially ruinous but copyright should exist so a creator of a work can profit off it for a reasonable duration.
It's one thing when a work disappears because no one owns it or no one cares but it's even more frustrating when the rights do exist, yet the legal spaghetti around them is so tangled that nobody can or will do anything
I loved NOLF and NOLF2. I was actually thinking about pulling them off the shelf and loading them up again the other day. I had no idea that the rights around them was such a mess.
If you like NOLF then check out Deathloop. It is the closest thing I have played to a NOLF sequel. Great game.
Deathloop really nails that offbeat spy-thriller vibe
This was a fun series of games. They are especially fun if you've watched some of the source material they're constantly referencing and alluding to, like The Man From U.N.C.L.E. (the 1960s one, not the 2010s movie), Get Smart, etc. Still holds up.
From what I remember of the game (played it on an Amiga), it also was very close in tone to the Austin Powers series of films.
I wonder if I should spend some time trying to get it running on my Steam Deck - there's a couple of Reddit threads around getting it to work.
It was a PC/PS2 game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Operative:_No_One_Lives_Fo...
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So say someone decides to produce a remaster of NOLF. Does Activision have to produce this piece of paper once they sue to establish standing? If Activision's version of this piece of paper was chewed up by rats in the 90s, does their ownership stake vanish in a puff as well?
If the potential victory from a lawsuit is $20K and Activision estimates it will cost them $50K to find this piece of paper, is the company relatively safe from a lawsuit?
They would need to prove that they have the rights to it to win court, yes. The chances of Activision actually pulling the trigger and suing if you made a remastered version are definitely less than 50-50. They'd have to actually have owned the rights in the first place, they still have the documentation to prove it, and that they'd find a suit a profitable idea? Let's say it's a 1/3 chance. That means if you publish it, you'd have a 2/3 chance of not getting sued by Activision, that can have a positive E(V) if you just go ahead and YOLO it.
But the killer is that WB and Fox (now Disney) also are sitting out there as maybe rights-holders. Let's say that each of them also has a 1/3 chance of suing and that they are all independent. Now you have a 8/27th chance of not getting sued- less than 1/3. So the expected value has to be twice as large as with a normal, single company situation to justify the increased risk of lawsuit from one of three companies. And so no one pencils out the choice as a good one, compared to the opportunity cost of working on some other game with a clearer rights situation.
It is reasonably sure that each party has a 90% chance of suing if they have rights. There is a 90% chance someone will send you a cease and desist just because all 3 are the type that will do it if they think they have rights. There is a reasonable chance more than 1 will send a cease and desist (some weaselly "we are still checking rights but if we have them your notice starts now - just enough to avoid fraud if it turns out they don't have rights)
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Why would you set the probability at 1/3rd? It feels closer to 1/100 at most.
They've admitted the documents, if they're anywhere, are buried in a file cabinet at Iron Mountain. You can set a lower limit on the amount of labor required to produce the document. Activision is not going to go on this quest if the labor required * chance of the document existing exceeds the amount they can win in a lawsuit.
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> They would need to prove that they have the rights to it to win court, yes.
I think proving that proving they had the rights at some time could be sufficient because it is impossible to prove they never sold them.
It feels like the right thing to do is to preemptively sue all three for a declaratory judgement, similar to obtaining a "quiet title" for a piece of real estate. Then they can put up or shut up. The right thing to do if you're trying to remaster the game, that is. The right thing to do if you just want to play it is to pirate.
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> Does Activision have to produce this piece of paper once they sue to establish standing?
Yes, but see below.
> If Activision's version of this piece of paper was chewed up by rats in the 90s, does their ownership stake vanish in a puff as well?
No, but complex. Legally the contract is still valid, but they still need to show the court what the details are. All parties to a contracts get a copy, and so Activation can legally force other people who should have a copy of the contract to produce it, any copy is enough (or several partially rat eaten copies may be enough to reproduce what the original said). Activision has all the time they want to find copies of the contract (unlike trademark, copyright isn't use it or lose it), so you are risking the above for a long time. Sometimes enough testimony in court of we did have a contract is enough - when it is obvious there must have been a contract at one time the court will put together obvious details which might be enough to sue. In this case the 3 parties can agree that while they don't know who as rights between the 3 of them the rights must be contained and so they can agree to a 3-way split for purposes of going to court - even if it latter turns out only one party had rights, that party agreed to the split (though if you years latter can prove a 4th party has rights they can sue the other 3).
Of course if rats did eat all copies of the contract the lawyer fees to figure this out are likely more than the game is worth and so it probably isn't worthwhile to sue, so practically it may be as if they no longer have rights to the game just because they can't afford to enforce it. This is a very risky take though and so nobody should risk it.
> This is a very risky take though and so nobody should risk it.
People keep on insisting when it comes to these things that various things are risky in a rather handwavey way but they never fully come out and articulate the risks.
I asked this question to ChatGPT a bunch of ways and tried to understand what the specifics are when people say this is risky and I can't really seem to get to anything that is a nuclear level risk, just a garden variety risk that you need to manage amongst all the other garden variety risks involved in running a business (when inputted with a reasonable set of realistic assumptions, it's possible to create assumptions where this is a nuclear level risk but that doesn't seem to apply to the majority of real world cases, including this one).
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At some point, refusing to sell a thing for decades should mean you forfeit the right to block others from preserving or enjoying it
Makes me wonder if a good way to "reign in" on copyright abuse and abandonware is to require copyright holders to pay a tax based on some kind of formula.
More importantly: If no tax is paid, after a reasonable amount of time, (1-3 years,) the work is considered abandoned and automatically moved to the public domain.
Even more importantly, if the work isn't available for general consumption (rental and physical), at a reasonable cost, without a subscription / ads, no copyright claims can be perused for non-commercial piracy. (IE, it would become totally legal to torrent a TV show if it's stuck in a streaming service that requires ads / a subscription.)
Georgism [1] but applied to copyright: If you want to extend your copyright past, say, 15 or 20 years, then you need to estimate the value of that copyright and pay tax on it. You can name any value you want, but someone can then buy it at that value.
Maybe there can be different rules for copyrights owned by humans vs corporations; 5 years free for corporations, 20 years free for humans. Or maybe longer for humans, I dunno. But having corporations sit on IP just because they can is ridiculous.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
>If you want to extend your copyright past, say, 15 or 20 years,
If you want to extend your copyright past 20 years, too bad. Come up with something new; that one's public domain now. Or it should be at any rate.
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NOLF2 is one of best and interesting FPS I played. I wish they remastered it.
I only played the first one, because the second one was more finnicky and required newer hardware. But I must say, NOLF 1 is one of the best and most unique FPS games ever. It should be far, far more famous than it is.
Copyright (and all intellectual property in general) should have a "use it or lose it" provision, just like trademarks. If there's a piece of software that you own but aren't interested in selling or maintaining then someone else should be able to do it without asking for your permission. Simple as that.
I believe this provision already exists in screen media. That's why you get some awful movies, like 2015's Fantastic Four.
Only as a part of some private deals signed between studios. It isn't a legal requirement.
So if I write a piece of software that does the job I designed it for, and you decide you want it to do something else, you should be handed the source code and right to redistribute it? Simple like that?
It sounds like you're still actively using the copyright (by distributing your software) in that case, so no?
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On the other hand, how the heck are they claiming to own any of that if they can't even produce the paperwork. A big enough developer would be able to remaster the game just enough to provoke a lawsuit from the "rights holders" and that would be the place to cross-check whether there's any meat in the deal. If they can't prove they actually own the rights, they can't sue. If they can, then they can sell/license it to the developer. Obviously this won't work for a small, independent actor because it's all going drown in the noise of legal billing.
I've always maintained that if we must have copyright then it should be something like a trademark where you have to actively defend it to keep it valid. If you have the "rights" to a piece of music, movie or game then, to validate the copyright's original purpose, you will have to actively exercise those rights to make gains from the "intellectual property". Copyright does not promote innovation if you're not required to gain from your creation: if you're just keeping your work in a drawer there's no point in granting you a temporary monopoly over the right to copy the work.
Game was really good. Fun gameplay, fun dialog. I played through it multiple times. I can't think of many games that I've done that for.
If you haven't seen it, and aren't inclined to play it, there are some good playthroughs on youtube to get a sense of what it's about.
I feel the reality is that if you own something, it's up to you to do what you want with it. I worry about, despite initial first-order good intentions, introducing strident limits on property such as being tossed about in this discussion.
People are talking about putting somewhat severe, I think, limitations on ownership and property. Are you sure you want these limitations? Fairness under law means if it applies to a game, it also applies to you and what you own. Hot takes on the topic don't seem to have fully thought through the implications on that (tho I do understand people's feelings on the matter).
A pertinent prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43146581
Another discussion from 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10710973
Hot take: If no one knows who has the rights to sell it, no one knows who has the rights to stop someone else from selling it. There'd be a legal battle. For a game like this, its probably not worth it. But I bet by the end of it we'd figure it out.
You could figure it out, but if you're the one getting sued, it's going to cost you a lot of money to pay their lawyers to prove that you didn't have the rights, and someone else did.
I had to pirate Xenosaga and emualate a PS2.
The reality is that the vast majority of entertainment is ephemeral. A videogame or movie get it's 5 minutes of fame. There are a few weirdos like me who want to play a 20 year old videogame but how much money can you get out of that and is it worth the trouble?
The modern copyright is having the opposite effect of what the founding Fathers had intended. The copyright was meant to provide protection and income to an author's family in the event of his death. Then after a reasonable time, the book passes into public domain for posterity. But today the copyright has an unreasonable time. A time that was for family to live on now has become a time for corporations to squeeze. Copyright law has become weaponized filled with landmines.
Now instead, works become inaccessible, out of print, and forgotten by the time it becomes public domain. The cult following, the fans, and the curious have long died out, leaving the work to pass into the abyss to join the works in the Library of Alexandria.
No One Sells Forever, eh?
But seriously, the way the copyright system prevents people from preserving and re-experiencing works as soon as the "rightful owner" stops caring about them is a travesty. I say that when an IP becomes orphaned, stops being claimed by a new rights-holder, or some time after it stops being sold/used, it should be forcibly removed from the grip of copyright and opened up for everyone to use. Otherwise, we're heading to a world where only a slim subset of well-performing properties are being offered, while the rest lie in a gigantic graveyard of things-someone-owns-but-will-never-use instead of being potentially put to use by someone who would actually care.
I remember playing the demos for NOLF and NOLF2 years ago. If I had known it would be impossible to buy 25 years later, I would have bought the game!
I also remember reading articles in Game Developer magazine about how sophisticated the AI in NOLF2 was. Wish I could find that article
this is true of a lot of indy films...I remember a talk by this one director, Joe Swanberg, who mentioned a lot of his early movies are in limbo and unwatchable because no one can figure out who has the rights...
So they can't release a sequel, but they could make a new game that has suspiciously similar vibes and call it "Some people eventually dies or something".
It seems like one could negotiate a price for "possible rights," no? I.e. I pay you $X and you relinquish any rights you may or may not have to me.
I recall having this on PS, so it very much could be bought.
What is the downside to limiting all movie and software copyrights to 10 years?
Source code and materials etc can remain trade secrets if desired?
And all IP with a movie as well - including characters. This would stop a studio from forever milking the same piece of IP forever.
One downside is it would motivate companies to get intellectual property registered under a trademark with indefinite protection rather than copyright. Even with our current lifetime + 70 year protection we have companies like Disney getting characters registered as a trademark.
No, the opposite. To be protected by copyright, sources must be uploaded to a Library of Software.
Downside: Movies will be made to not last; Software will be made to be incompatible with everything on a 10-year timeframe; and the country who enabled this open mindset will displease its copyright owners who will move to the other countries.
Everybody is waiting for HL3. I want NOLF3
I'm torn about whether I'd want a direct continuation. It has similarities to the changing tone of the spy shows/movies and their satires that inspired it in that things change over time, and the reception to the feminism angle would be different now. A sequel would likely mean moving the time period on again which has additional challenges.
I could definitely see starting over with a reboot, which would also give the studio involved a chance to dodge all the rights issues by doing a 'spiritual successor' and renaming everything. 25 years later you're likely trying to attract newcomers much more than you are fans of the old games that want specifically more NOLF. I'd also be interested in a cold war era spy thriller that played it straight, real spy history has a lot to pull from that could be weaved into an intriguing story to play through, and NOLF did touch on some of the issues around spying like taking advantage of people.
This. This was such a charming game series.
Never played the game, but I still remember being intrigued by the lady on the cover: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61m7HINvtnL._AC_SL1500_....
No One Lives Forever is a game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Operative:_No_One_Lives_Fo...
Usual insanely wordy paragraphs and endless linked text hiding everything on TechDirt.
off topic: My goodness, anyone feel the UI/UX of the website to be really refreshing? I've lately been digging compact/industrialized looking UI vs 'touch'/comfort view that take up way too much real estate.
However you can actually compile from source
It's very interesting how people think about copyright for this case (loosey goosey, yolo), as compared with copyright when discussing AI.
Not that interesting really as this is about people wanting to play an excellent old game but there is no legal method to do so due to the actions of corporations. With AI, the corporations are hoovering up lots of copyright content so that it can be "repackaged" as AI output without wanting to attempt to do so legally.
Fuck “buying it legitimately” anyway when it's old enough that it would be Public Domain under a sane copyright regime.
Relevant: NOLF Revival Edition (same as mentioned in the article and quoted article, but actual link):
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43146581
Totally agree, buying makes sense if it helps the creator(s), if it is not possible or it is tainted, I'd say go to the high seas and enjoy.
Reposting my proposals regarding copyright:
Any content, once published/distributed/broadcast in the US, that is not made readily available to the public going forward loses copyright protection. This includes revisions.
* A film, TV show, sound recording, book, or any other copyrighted content must, once made available for public purchase, always remain available. If the only streaming service willing to pay to stream your movie has the smallest market share, too bad; the market has spoken on the value of your content. An ebook can fulfill this purpose for a print book; streaming can fulfill this purpose for a theatrical or physical-media film. But it must be available to maintain copyright.
* Compulsory licensing should apply; if Netflix wants to pay the same amount of money as the above-mentioned small market-share streaming service for the film, Netflix must be allowed to do so. The film's rights owner can demand more, raising the price for all, but if every outlet refuses, the film immediately goes into public domain. This process is reversible, but it would set a ceiling to prevent the owner from setting a ridiculously high price to prevent its availability.
* If a Blu-ray of a film or TV show has excised or modified scenes for whatever reason, and the original isn't also made available (whether on a different "theatrical cut" release, or as a different cut on the same disc), the entire original version immediately goes into public domain.
* If NBC posts Saturday Night Live skits on YouTube that have removed "problematic" scenes[1] without explaining the differences—a diff file, basically—the entire original skit loses copyright protection.
Separate issue, but also very worthwhile:
* Streaming services must make all data regarding their content available in some standardized format. Consumers should be able to use one application to access all content they have access to. The creator of SmartTube (a very nice YouTube-compatible player) should be able to add the appropriate API support to search for and play Netflix/Prime Video/Disney+/Paramount+ content.
The above applies to software, too. Legalize abandonware!
[1] Something I understand already happens