Comment by donatj
1 day ago
> The other day, someone told me, “I can’t imagine you ever being awkward with people.”
I was telling my therapist of several years recently about being uncomfortable with the number of new people I've had to meet recently.
He seemed surprised that I wasn't excited by it all and said something along the lines of "You seem like a very social person, that seems out of character." It struck me… am I really that good at masking that my therapist didn't realize I am absolutely terrified in near all social situations? I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years.
Working from home since COVID has made my social skills so much worse because I don't get the practice.
> I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years.
Forget small talk.
Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears. When it's your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote in reply if it's on topic or take the opportunity to pivot to a related topic you're passionate about. If you do the latter: do. not. info-dump. Give them a chance to play the game I just described to you from their side.
Need a cold opener? Get the party going with something you anticipate the majority of the people there would remember.
--
You: "Hey, does anybody remember the Blizzard of '96?"
Them: "Yeah! I remember they closed down all of Route 9!"
You: "Hell yeah they did. My family pulled me down the highway on a snow tube. I've gone tubing every year since. Any tubers here?"
Them: "No, but I love snowboarding."
You: "Nice. I was briefly obsessed with snowboarding after playing 1080 on the N64, but I was always too chicken-shit to try it. Where do you go snowboarding?"
Them: "Vermont. Where do you go tubing?"
You: "I used to do it over near that big hill by the library. Ever see that?"
--
Arm yourself with personal stories to make situations like this easier. People would rather interact with the guy always telling stories than the visibly-uncomfortable one sitting in the corner.
As someone who really struggled with social interactions (and still does at times, just not as bad), this fails already at the first two steps:
> Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears
How do I understand what is important? People say a lot of stuff, some important parts and some parts that are beside the point. Talking also involves identifying and reacting to the "important" bits, picking up the "wrong" stuff will be very weird. An exaggerated example:
> "We had a really bad traffic accident when we went to Sweden"
The obvious thing to engage with is the accident - but a struggling person might as well ask how they liked Sweden.
> When it's your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote [...]
I really struggled to even notice when it's "my turn" to talk. Either interrupting the other person or awkwardly looking at them until I notice or the other person tries to recover the situation.
I myself also tend to do that, but that is a behavior that is seen by the majority/"normal" people as non-social, unless if you already know them very well or if you are the one initiating the conversation.
Listening to people means that you actively listening and supporting them in their conversation, not bringing up your own angles to it. When you do that it is perceived by most people as you trying to one-up them in the conversation, instead of what you're actually doing.
In your listed example its fine because you started the interaction, but let's turn it around and say you walked into a conversation where people are talking about downtown in ABC. You want to participate and remember that there was a blizzard there in '96, so you bring that up.
Most people will see that as severe ADHD, why are we now talking about a blizzard from 1996? We were just talking about about how DEF is happening in ABC later this month?
Pivoting has the same problem, there are social cues that display your role in the group. Just walking into a conversation while trying to pivot it to your interests is in general quite rude etc.
I would also add that people generally try too hard with small talk. It's SMALL talk. Tell them about the new brand of jam you put on your toast this breakfast. Ask them what they had for breakfast. Or recount your last trip to the grocery store.
Trying too hard kills the fun of the interaction. You're really just getting a ball rolling. Who cares where it starts, just see where it goes.
Also, as TFA also mentioned, it's not what you say but how you say it. >80% of the value of the interaction is just (non-verbally) showing you're happy that they're there.
What if I don’t have it in me to listen? I want to savour my active listening capacity with the people I love, not everyone I interact with.
That seems like the most pointless conversation ever though, neither side really got anything out of it. If you can't infodump or listen to someone else infodump, is it really anything but meaningless pleasantries?
The goal isn't to exchange facts, it's to bond.
2 replies →
You perceive it that way because you aren't into snowboarding, tubing or experienced the blizzard of '96.
1 reply →
Yes yes yes. You rarely need to DO anything other than listen. Just be a good listener. Maybe identify handles in what they're saying and then occasionally ask them about them:
How did that make you feel? Wait, you did what? Why did you do that? What do you enjoy about that?
>You rarely need to DO anything other than listen
There is a particular amount of risk here, this does set you up to interact with attention vacuums. People that will talk constantly without break nor desire to listen to what you have to say. Over any amount of time (weeks/months) a person that you can have a real two way conversation is needed.
>I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years.
Here's a trick, it sounds stupid but it works like magic.
Just talk about mundane things that are physically present. Mention the color of the wallpaper. Mention the painting on the wall. Talk about how noisy the room is, or about the food on the plate in front of you. Literally act like you're an image classifier tasked with outputting a text summary of the scene you find yourself in...
If you're the cerebral type like I am, you'll feel afraid these topics will bore the other person. But surprisingly, they don't, if the other person is neurotypical.
Non-weird people are really weird.
It is like that to me. I believe that I've just learned the proper motions for some interactions, and I can look to be very social person proficient in communications. It is easy for me, no problem. Till I hit some situation where I need to think fast, trying to figure out what is expected of me now.
> I am absolutely terrified in near all social situations
It is different for me, I'm absolutely confident in near all social situations, but there is a catch, I actively avoid social situations which make me terrified, and I'm pretty good at it.
> I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years.
I have never bothered to get the idea of a small talk. I hate it from my teens, I hate to dig in my mind for something I can say when there is nothing to say. Or to voice opinions about things I don't care (and "i don't care about your TV-series, I never watch them" doesn't count as a socially acceptable opinion). So I just avoid such situations overall. Generally if you avoid talking with people tet-a-tete you don't need to talk small. You can just look like you are listening, why calculating ways to leave the place without offending anyone.
i think part of the reason is that our own discomfort feels much stronger than it actually shows to others. the discomfort is inside us, and the people we interact with don't notice because for them it is not a concept. only if you and i meet one or both of us might realize the others discomfort.
it's kind of like farting in public. you know you did, and you think everyone noticed, but in reality most didn't
> Working from home since COVID has made my social skills so much worse because I don't get the practice.
Opposite for me.. I apply my social efforts to a smaller subset of work demands on my time and social interface, and so I have more energy for gregariousness after work, on my terms, etc.
If you are outwardly meeting lots of people and your therapist is picking up on vibes you aren't awkward, it sounds to me like you might be being quite hard on yourself. Not to suggest your experience isn't valid, but that perhaps your small talk is not the issue!
The best small talkers say very little. We just ask interested questions about what you've already said. An easy cold opener at parties is, "So how do you know the host?" Then inquire about whether they're still doing that thing, or how long ago it was, or where they did it, whether they learned any cool things--the point is to keep asking questions.
Most people love talking about themselves and things they like to do. If you can keep them doing that, they'll remember fondly the "great conversation" you had.
Fair warning: It won't get you past the third or fourth interaction, at which point you probably actually need to have something in common, but it's an easy way to get through parties.
You might think so, but a lot of people can tell when you're ELIZA-ing them to death, and they will learn to avoid you.
There are a lot of people on HN who want a technical manual for how to party, and a lot of them keep telling each other that the art of conversation is about attentive listening. Can you imagine a conversation between two people practicing attentive listening on each other?
Yeah if an awkward person does it they can be called out as if they are interrogating or interviewing. I actually remember trying these tactics when I was teenager... and that is how it came off. I tried so many weird things because I was so unhappy with my social performance.
Usually safer way is making observations rather than directly asking or at least continously asking things over and over as if to desperately try to keep the conversation going.
But even then if you are awkward, it will still come off awkward and people will try to excuse them out of that situation no matter how much theory you might read online.
Exact same problem I have with being fully remote. It’s turned into near total isolation from everyone except immediate family.
I found there's a transition period where you eventually learn how to reach out via the internet to your remote peers and have good conversations.
Consider that context heavily impacts how you show up, and in a therapy context, you’re likely to be a lot more relaxed.
So I’d bet it’s not that you’re masking that terror when you’re with your therapist, but that it isn’t present.
Oh boy do I ever relate to that - “You seem like a very social person, that seems out of character” - I know that’s how I seem, but god almighty do I not feel that way.
I’ve learned that’s its best if I play the role of a social person, but it’s just playing a role.
I don’t think anyone but a handful of my closest loved ones really grasp how very close I have always been to running away to live as a hermit in a cabin in the woods.
I think I can do small talk, but still it stresses me out and I would rather be alone.
>am I really that good at masking that my therapist didn't realize I am absolutely terrified in near all social situations?
Or is your therapist attempting to bootstrap a self-fulfilling prophecy, i.e. when you feel socially overwhelmed, you'd remember that they praised you for being social, and the warm fuzzies of being praised would make you feel less overwhelmed?
You know, as the grand maxim of software engineering goes, "whatever works" lmao