Comment by marssaxman
8 days ago
pet peeve - pick one:
"How the Atomic Tests Looked from Los Angeles"
or
"What the Atomic Tests Looked Like from Los Angeles"
just don't mash them together like this.
8 days ago
pet peeve - pick one:
"How the Atomic Tests Looked from Los Angeles"
or
"What the Atomic Tests Looked Like from Los Angeles"
just don't mash them together like this.
Explanation for non-native speakers (like me) who didn't know the rule:
The words "how" and "like" clash because "How" already implies manner or appearance, making the addition of "like" (which serves a similar function with "what") superfluous.
"How" expects an adjective -> "how does he look" "he looks happy"
"What" expects a noun -> "what is he?" "a dog"
"Like" invites a comparison -> "what does he look like?" "he looks like Lassie"
When you combine "how" and "like" it gives native speakers an itch because you're requesting I create a comparison with an adjective.
In this case. It's hard to make a firm rule because you can construct sentences with both words in them that aren't wrong-sounding, because the same word can be used in subtly grammatically different ways.
A good rule of thumb is to phrase the sentence as a question and see if it sounds correct. "What does it look like?" is fine. "How does it look?" is fine. "How does it look like?" does not. In the question "Like how?", "like" is more akin to "I said, like, what do you want me to do?" - I'm no linguist, but they do have a term for that use.
Hah, this reminds me of the Isaac Asimov story about catching Nazi spies inflitrating the US...
Given Americans' general indifference to perfect grammer, if it "sounds" right they usually don't make a fuss. So they might have learned something new as well.
I haven’t read the Asimov story, but it was probably based on this true event:
As a result, U.S. troops began asking other soldiers questions that they felt only Americans would know the answers to in order to flush out the German infiltrators, which included naming state capitals, sports and trivia questions related to the U.S., etc. This practice resulted in Brigadier General Bruce C. Clarke being held at gunpoint for some time after he incorrectly said the Chicago Cubs were in the American League[7][8][9][10] and a captain spending a week in detention after he was caught wearing German boots. General Omar Bradley was repeatedly stopped in his staff car by checkpoint guards who seemed to enjoy asking him such questions. The Skorzeny commando paranoia also contributed to numerous instances of mistaken identity. All over the Ardennes, U.S. soldiers attempted to persuade suspicious U.S. military policemen that they were genuine GIs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greif
2 replies →
> "sounds" right
This is how it actually works. The brain machine learns from available data and sorts out which is correct. "Sounds right" is the output from that neural network. The "rules" are then derived from what some set of people think sounds right.
Hi, American here and "how" + "to look like" makes my teeth itch. However, people generally find grammar corrections to be needlessly pedantic when the erroneous grammar does not impede comprehension, so I've personally decided to choose my grammatical battles and simply fume about people talking about "how something looks like" in private instead.
4 replies →
"How ___ like" is probably the single most common mistake I see among non-native speakers. Also, unlike other mistakes which can just sound informal, this one "sounds dumb", to use a mean phrase, but it's good to know for people trying to sound proper.
As a native English speaker who learned a foreign language (German) in high school, I have a pet theory about this, which is that I suspect most other languages use a word roughly equivalent to English "appear" (with which it would be correct to use "how", such as "how the atomic tests appeared from Los Angeles") even in colloquial speech, whereas English tends to reserve those synonyms for more formal registers of speech; in casual conversation in English, you wouldn't ask someone "how did he appear?" (unless you meant the other sense of "appear", as in "become visible"), but you would in, say, German (wie hat er ausgesehen? or wie sah er aus?). Of course, I'm sure learners of English as a foreign language are taught to say "what does he look like?" and not "how does he look like?", but I can imagine them struggling with remembering that just like I struggle with remembering genders and cases and declined forms in German.
Also, the atoms do not need tests, they have functioned reliably for billions of years.
The plutonium atoms in the bombs were pretty new and rather unreliable.
This is also a pet peeve of mine. However, I suspect this bothers us because we’ve grown up with standard “western” English (US/UK/Canada/Australia/etc). “How does X Y like” is common in other forms of English, some of which might even be native (but non-western)! For example, I bet this construction is standard in Indian English. Based on population alone, I think this is a losing battle; English is probably going to adopt the structure we dislike. That’s unfortunate for me and you. But I think fighting it is a fool’s errand.
Because westerners are out numbered or because we embrace an ethic that is self deprecating? Connect the dots.
Because the conventions that are considered “standard” evolve over time to match the most common usage. Non-western English is probably already the most common English, due to India alone. Those speaking patterns have been relatively isolated so far, but online media brings it into the mainstream. My main claim is that it will take over the present “standard” usage, because of the sheer quantity (but not in an alarmist xenophobic way, lol).
Some examples that have become normalized for me personally, I think due to working with lots of international folks in tech:
- “i have a doubt” instead of “i have a question”
- “i will not claim X” instead of “i would not claim X” or “i don’t claim X”
- “this is not as X as compared with Y” instead of “this is not as X as Y” or “this is not X compared with Y”
- "it will anyways be fun" instead of "anyways, it will be fun"
I’m not sure if these are broad patterns, or just peculiarities of the specific crowd i hang with. And I don’t think these are standard usages yet, but I’ve become familiar enough that I say these sometimes, despite intuitively feeling that they are wrong.
Edit: i think most of the phrases i have adopted are from Indian English, but unsure.
3 replies →
I disagree with the implication that "majority rules" is such an immutable truth that the minority shouldn't even bother fighting or expressing their opinion.
Languages evolve. It is foolish to think that you will stop the evolution. And also purposeless — there is nothing better or worse about my great grandfather’s English, my English, or my kid’s English.
1 reply →
Thanks for pointing that out. As a non-native speaker, I have learned something new.
This is a pretty common construction among some non-native English speakers.
As a non-native speaker, TIL.
Then again, my brain tries to complete the sentence as "Atomic Test-and-Set".
I suspect this was an editing error versus a conscious choice. That is to say I'm betting that "How" came from a prior revision and they published it before realizing the error. I've done this myself too often. ;D
Hey, don't go off of the topic. No need to loose your mind! I could probably get you some counselling for cheap!
> Hey, don't go off of the[sic] topic. No need to loose[sic] your mind! I could probably get you some counselling[sic] for cheap!
Are you purposely trying to drive people crazy?
Eye don't no, our ewe?
Yes, but you missed "for cheap" ;-)