Comment by TulliusCicero
2 months ago
> For all that tools like PeerTube, Mastodon, etc are clunkier and more limited than things like YouTube, Bluesky, etc, I think that argument is increasingly going to be irrelevant to their value
Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them.
Technically proficient people may overlook something being clunky if it suits their needs in other ways, but it's a harder sell for the average user. And really, it shouldn't be an issue. Good UX isn't trivial, but it's not especially complicated or budget-busting either.
Users are also happy with clunkiness if it gives them other things they value. Ask any Windows user. Also, video game modding.
My general experience is that clunky software is what made people tech literate, and now that everything has safety barriers and protects the user from everything tech literacy has fallen.
Windows is also just convenience. Most use it because it comes with the computer
Or because don't know (or care) that they have a choice. Same with browsers. Most users will click the 'internet button' to get online
The main reason is the better alternative costs twice as much.
5 replies →
Windows user here. It goes vastly further than that. I've been using Windows since version 3.0. I'm used to it to the point where it's second nature. Linux is foreign and difficult to comprehend, not least because it explicitly avoids being anything like Windows or accommodating habits people acquired from Windows. I don't like the direction Windows is going any more than anyone, and I'm avoiding Windows 11 for the time being, but as long as Linux people continue to believe that the only reason Windows users don't switch is because they don't know Linux exists, Linux will not be able to attract Windows users even as Windows goes full capitalist enshittification.
2 replies →
This is acceptable. We now understand that privacy-focused solutions are not appropriate for individuals with average technological literacy, and we cannot depend on companies to self-regulate.
At present, the emphasis is on the potential of large language models (LLMs) and the related ethical considerations. However, I would prefer to address the necessity for governments or commissions to assume responsibility for their citizens concerning "social" media, as this presents a significantly greater risk than any emerging technology.
> Users are also happy with clunkiness if it gives them other things they value. Ask any Windows user.
In that case, the alternatives are also clunky. I use Windows, MacOS and Linux regularly, and all of them got serious UX problems.
There are some technical barriers to approaching fediverse platforms, but I personally see the main barriers being cultural.
I'm a big proponent of Mastodon and still love using it, but the culture (especially early on) was exceptionally protectionist and lots of people got bullied off for very silly reasons. I think the attitude is less like a children's secret club and more chill generally.
All this to say, I think this is will get better, but the best way to help the fediverse is to join it, be active, and be chill.
I joined Mastodon, was active, and was chill.
I was talking into the void. I gave up after 6 months of getting no reaction and finding nobody of interest to follow.
(Worse, half of what I wrote is now gone because my instance shut down and Mastodon doesn't even have a feature to migrate any content to a new instance.)
I joined Mastodon early on and stuck around for a few weeks, before I got tired of constantly being messaged by neonazi gay furries who were very keen to show me how excited they were to talk to me.
>but the culture (especially early on) was exceptionally protectionist and lots of people got bullied off for very silly reasons.
Had no idea that was happening. What makes your say that?
I was there in the early days, loads of folk joined and their first posts got replies like
Because you couldn't see replies from other servers, they'd get quite a few of these.
> Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them
Nobody really wants to use instagram either—there's basically nothing positive to say about the app or service itself—it just has critical mass.
Is this a "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded" moment?
More like texting, nobody likes the phone system, but everyone you know is on it
6 replies →
Typically crowds don't shove billboards every third person
At least for Mastodon and the rest of the Fediverse ecosystem it does seem that people actually want to use them, and more people every day.
People moved on from Mastodon to Bluesky because it was more responsive to user needs. I encouraged people to move to Mastodon but then watched them move on.
It is what it is - but it's worth being clear-eyed about what it is.
FOSS just does not have the aggressive scaling mindset. Even success stories like Linux' game compatibility and Chromium can be traced to just regular tech companies, as opposed to non profits.
2 replies →
It has actually improved a lot since then. The UI has had changes, search is better, it has quote posts now. More usability enhancements are under active development.
2 replies →
> Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them.
Namely, in the case of PeerTube, content creators. Youtube is convenient because it comes with builtin monetization. You can probably expect loud objections (rightfully so) from some of them if you download their stuff from Youtube to upload it to PeerTube.
If you don't have the content creators, you don't have content consumers and you cannot bootstrap a network effect (some services did bootstrap a network effect with plain and simple piracy, though).
I believe the UX is secondary to available content. People do make the necessary efforts if they think the benefit is worth it.
Is the UX even the issue with these competitors? The cost for bandwidth and storage and having fast enough servers is the real issue here.
To me a fatal flaw in ActivityPub systems is that your identity is tied to a server. Yes you can port it, but it’s a hassle. That means the server ops become these little lords over little fiefdoms and a server just dying takes your identity with it.
This also means your reach and what you see depends on your choice of server. I very much don’t want that.
It’s also confusing to non-technical people. Join Mastodon! But which one? How do I pick one?
Technically speaking, Nostr is better. Your identity is a key. Servers are just dumb relays.
Unfortunately it seems to be nothing but crypto bros talking about crypto, or was last time I checked. Nobody uses it.
> That means the server ops become these little lords over little fiefdoms and a server just dying takes your identity with it.
Or that means that everyone can be their own little lord reigning over their own little server, to the point that it doesn't matter, because effectively, network nodes don't need to be "big" to be relevant in a federated ecosystem. I'm not so much into ActivityPub, but I run an XMPP server for my family. I'm not saying that this is for everyone, but close-enough.
>everyone can be their own little lord reigning over their own little serve
Only if it's simple for the average person
And only until an admin of a big sever dislikes something you say and adds your server to the censorship list on fediseer.
> To me a fatal flaw in ActivityPub systems is that your identity is tied to a server
In contrast to Instagram, Facebook and co?
A handful of servers vs thousands.
Are you on Instagram?" is easy to understand for someone not on it; they search for "Instagram", install the client app, sign up and done.
"Are you on Mastodon?" doesn't work the same way as they would need to pick a server to sign up against, which seems like an important decision (what happens if I pick wrong? Do I have to pick the same server my friend has? And so on?).
3 replies →
Agreed, nostr makes a lot of sense when you read about it and then you go there... Once.
Moving to another mastodon instance is simple. It takes 2-3 clicks and off you go. I think what you say was probably true in the past, but today, nothing could be simpler than taking your stuff to another instance.
Just to say that I'm using NOSTR on my apps, most people using those apps don't even know about NOSTR at all but they all enjoy the quick login procedure without emails nor phones.
Any libraries you recommend? Do you host a dedicated relay for your own apps?
1 reply →