Comment by bayindirh
2 months ago
IIRC, it was not about Rust vs. C, but a commotion rooted from patch quality and not pushing people around about things.
Linux Kernel team has this habit of a forceful pushback which breaks souls and hearts when prodded too much.
Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly.
Oh, I still have the relevant tab open. It's about code quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312
That was a single message in a very large thread. It absolutely was not just about code quality.
Yes, that's the entry of the rabbit hole, and reader is advised to dig their own tunnel.
I remember following the tension for a bit. Yes, there are other subjects about how things are done, but after reading it, I remember framing "code quality" as the base issue.
In high-stakes software development environments, egos run high generally, and when people clash and doesn't back up, sparks happen. If this warning is ignored, then something has to give.
If I'm mistaken, I can enjoy a good explanation and be gladly stand corrected.
This is what happened here. This is probably the second or third time I witness this over 20+ years. Most famous one was over CPU schedulers, namely BFS, again IIRC.
marcan has even publicly ranted about having to send patches as e-mails. This rage quit simply concluded that journey.
> Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly.
https://archive.md/uLiWX
https://archive.md/rESxe
Thanks! Let me edit this in, too.
Edit: Nah, I can't, too late.
https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292
Some pretext: I'm a Rust skeptic and tired of Rust Evangelism Task Force and Rewrite in Rust movements.
---
Yes. I remember that message.
Also let's not forget what marcan said [0] [1].
In short, a developer didn't want their C codebase littered with Rust code, which I can understand, then the Rust team said that they can maintain that part, not complicating his life further (Kudos to them), and the developer lashing out to them to GTFO of "his" lawn (which I understand again, not condone. I'd have acted differently).
This again boils down to code quality matters. Rust is a small child when compared to the whole codebase, and weariness from old timers is normal. We can discuss behaviors till the eternity, but humans are humans. You can't just standardize everything.
Coming to marcan, how he behaved is a big no in my book, too. Because it's not healthy. Yes, the LKML is not healthy, but this is one of the things which makes you wrong even when you're right.
I'm also following a similar discussion list, which has a similar level of friction in some matters, and the correct thing is to taking some time off and touching grass when feeling tired and being close to burnout. Not running like a lit torch between flammable people.
One needs to try to be the better example esp. when the environment is not in an ideal shape. It's the hardest thing to do, but it's the most correct path at the same time.
[0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20250205004552mp_/https://lwn.ne...
[1]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/404
One perspective is that Rust appears to be forced into the Linux kernel through harassment and pressure. Instead of Rust being pulled, carefully, organically and friendly, and while taking good care of any significant objections. Objections like, getting the relevant features from unstable Rust into stable Rust, or getting a second compiler like gccrs (Linux kernel uses gcc for C) fully up and running, or ensuring that there is a specification (the specification donated by/from Ferrous Systems, might have significant issues), or prioritizing the kernel higher than Rust.
If I had been enthusiastic about Rust, and wanted to see if it could maybe make sense for Rust to be part of the Linux kernel[0], I would probably had turned my attention to gccrs.
What is then extra strange is that there have been some public hostility against gccrs (WIP Rust compiler for gcc) from the rustc (sole main Rust compiler primarily based on LLVM) camp.
It feels somewhat like a corporate takeover, not something where good and benign technology is most important.
And money is at stake as well, the Rust Foundation has a large focus on fundraising, like how their progenitors at Mozilla/Firefox have or had a large focus on fundraising. And then there are major Rust proponents who openly claim, also here on Hacker News, that software and politics are inherently entwined.
[0]: And also not have it as a strict goal to get Rust into the kernel, for there might be the possibility that Rust was discovered not to be a good fit; and then one could work on that lack of fit after discovery and maybe later make Rust a good fit.
26 replies →
> In short, a developer didn't want their C codebase littered with Rust code
from reading those threads at the time, the developer in question was deliberately misunderstanding things. "their" codebase wasn't to be "littered" with Rust code - it wasn't touched at all.
1 reply →