Comment by kace91
2 days ago
If anyone is considering moving editors, I was recently in the same boat and I can’t recommend enough lazyvim + the ebook “lazyvim for ambitious developers”.
This gets you a fully featured vscode-like baseline (navigation, language integration, integrated terminal, the whole thing).
I had tried many times to switch to vim/emacs and the initial barrier to get a workable system always kept me from pushing forward. With this I was able to make neovim my daily driver at work after just a couple weekends playing with it.
I felt the same way about vim. I never had the patience to get started and configure everything to get the full benefits.
I just switched over to Omarchy for my personal OS and I know that it comes with a pre-configured neovim (using lazyvim) setup that looks like a fully-fledged IDE.
I personally have been using Helix as my editor at home and work. The fact that everything generally works on download is what got me using it.
I think some of the big features of VSCode are the extensions and, equivalently, the nice debug support. I just started using VSCode about a week ago thanks to moving to a project that uses scons as its primary supported build tool, and I've learned to hate scons and love VSCode over that time. The completely manual tasks/launch/etc stuff is kind of weird at first, but then becomes amazing and far more convenient, after you get used to it. And the 'debugger' (kind of weird to frame it that way as its extension based, like everything) is amazing - extremely fast, great visualizations, and so on.
How would vim compare?
I can't help you much, as currently I happen to use ruby at work and native debugging is enough - you can drop into an interactive console at a breaking point adding a single line, with no tooling.
Here's the chapter on debugging in the book I mentioned if you want to take a look: https://lazyvim-ambitious-devs.phillips.codes/course/chapter...
> I happen to use ruby at work and native debugging is enough - you can drop into an interactive console at a breaking point adding a single line, with no tooling.
If you've only ever used this type of debugging, you should really try out a real IDE debugger once. The difference in productivity when you can use your IDE to navigate to, say, the usages of a function and then just press a keyboard shortcut to put a breakpoint on the line with that usage is immense.
Compare this to the native debug support: you have to leave the interactive debugger, move to your editor, find usages, note down the file name and line number, then go back to your interactive debugger and type a manual break command (break my_file.rb:2517 or something). All of that context switching and remembering is replaced by a single keyboard shortcut in Emacs, VS Code, or any other integrated debugger. And no, adding manual breakpoints in your source code is not simpler - what I'm describing works interactively while your code is already running, whereas a breakpoint statement requires you to restart the whole process.
3 replies →
I think many people don't know or underestimate Zed. Native, fast, with extensions, with Vim mode support.
And sadly it is also not accessible to screen readers. VS Code for all its flaws is really, really good for screen reader accessibility. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's not only one of the most accessible code editors we have, but one of the most accessible electron apps overall. So losing it to this Microsoft stuff would be a huge deal to anyone who relies on screen reader or accessibility tools. :(
The reason I didn't explore Zed is their for profit model.
There might be awesome people and work behind it now, but I've already been burned enough times by rug pulls and shittyfication. I don't want to be planning another move 5 years from now.
Or don't want. I don't want an AI infected editor.
Zed is much less AI-infected than VSCode. In fact, in Zed there’s a single button to disable all AI features.
1 reply →
> I had tried many times to switch to vim/emacs and the initial barrier to get a workable system always kept me from pushing forward
What’s that initial barrier? Both Vim and emacs has great documentation that includes a tutorial, a guide, and a reference.
What people often defines as workable system is replicating their old editors instead of learning the current one. Like adding a file tree on the side
>What people often defines as workable system is replicating their old editors instead of learning the current one. Like adding a file tree on the side
Well, kinda. I define a workable system as a system I, personally, can work with straight away, with a minimum loss of productivity. It is not at all meant as a judgement on how good plain vim/emacs are.
This workability indeed might require temporally replicating old habits while I learn the new ones, which lazyvim does. Vscode-like file trees, global search, or integrated terminal, for example.
It's also about discoverability, like the helpers shown through which-key. And the guarantee that a set of default plugins play well with each other, so that I can leave toying with the config for whenever I have the time.
Some people might think this is a crutch for properly learning the tool, but this is not my experience. I'm much more likely to get comfortable with vim and learn further if I can be in it 8 hours a day from the start. At first I used the integrated terminal to run git commands, now I invoke lazygit, which I love. At first I used the file tree to navigate, now I have custom commands to bring a file and its test suite side to side on a keypress. This gradual curve is what I was missing earlier.
Yeah, for most of us in the real world, we can't afford to be way underproductive for a week while we learn and set up our new editor from scratch. Learning vim is one of the greatest gifts I think I gave myself, and I'm extremely glad I did it, but it was not easy. A more gradual curve or even a crutch is completely fine in my opinion. I've seen plenty of people get started with vim just by putting them key bindings in their IDE and getting used to the motions, and then gradually moving over. The main key is to iterate, and not stagnate
> This workability indeed might require temporally replicating old habits while I learn the new ones, which lazyvim does
I'm not judging your for it, but to me that sounds like learning the violin by plucking the strings like a guitar. You're increasing the learning period by following old habits which may even be harmful.
I think it's better to just use the new editor sparingly, learning what you need, then switch fully once you're comfortable. A filetree is never necessary unless you're actually exploring and a file manager would be better for that. Vim has global search with `grep` and the terminal is available through `ctrl-z` and the `:terminal` command.
I've seen people touting Neovim setup that are just making things complex and fragile for no reason.
2 replies →
Learning an entirely new editor is a barrier. Documentation or not, that's brand new muscle memory you have to develop alongside the actual task of coding.
I get that using vim typically includes obsessive forms of efficiency, but some people just want to focus on coding in a way that's comfortable to them. Sometimes that means having a side panel.
>Sometimes that means having a side panel.
I do not even need that. Modal editing is enough to keep me away from all the VI clones. I hate it with a passion.
I have a fully customized Emacs that I use for anything Lispy and it's great for that purpose but everything else is just "ok".
I try to use Zed but since it is a commercial offering it is just a matter of time until it gets entshitified too.
Vscode is/was really good but it seems to get worse and it's Microsoft.... I run out of editors it seems.
4 replies →
How about switching from VS Code to VS Codium? Same experience without the microsoft telemetry. I suppose Copilot won't be included due to licensing constraints.
How does the extension model work with MS? I did a similar move to chromium and eventually had to move to firefox when they pulled the plug on ad blockers.
There's https://open-vsx.org/. I've seen in the repo people talk about tweaking workarounds to use the proprietary MS stuff.
For me Helix gets enough right out of the box I find myself reaching for it far more than I ever did with vi or Emacs. They're working on plugin support but I've not felt the need to investigate it at all.
Is there a good solution to managing "workspace", especially handling multi-folder workspace? I have a project where code lives in giant monorepo, and the files I edit don't have the same root (more precisely, the root is too large to open in the editor). I haven't found a good solution outside VSCode yet.
Well the file picker can be limited to the current directory and its descendants, and the global search picker is by default. Beyond that, dunno.
I suggest the opposite and not starting with all the plugins and instead try to learn the vim way of doing things. Being too locked in to the old ways could prevent discovering all the great things vim can do.
The examples you mention already exist.
- navigation: plenty of native navigation in neovim, does lazy add anything specific?
- language integration: lsp, requires config sure but git clone isn't much work.
- integrated terminal: just run `:term`
Learning to think in vim means unlearning a lot of old habits. Today I only use fzf.vim, nvim-lspconfig and a theme, not even a plugin manager (I will migrate to the native one that's in nightly when it reaches stable though). Pretty much vanilla Neovim. I'm considering trying nvim-dap to get better debugger support but so far I'm fine with :termdebug for the languages it supports (c/go/rust just works).
When I find something I want vim to do I start with a keybinding, then a function, and maybe if it's complex add a plugin. Adding half of the available plugins just because creates an unnecessary attack vector you now have to keep an eye on.
I do get the benefit of not depending on plugins, really. Long term my current config could rot (abandoned projects, moving dependencies, etc), while a simple config is stable. But I'm happy removing dependencies one at a time.
For example, <leader> ft toggles a terminal in a bottom split. This is familiar enough that I knew I could rely on it whenever needed.
Could I have used :term and manually set splits each time? or learn tmux? or use ctrl+z and fg to move back and forth ? Sure, but that's extra cognitive load.
Maybe I want to focus first on becoming fluid with regex for search and replace, or improving the flow for running unit tests, or get used to using macros as a replacement for multicursor. There's a lot of gaps to cover, each small enough that it's "just do X" for a veteran, but enough when added up that I would much rather pay the cost gradually.
> Could I have used :term and manually set splits each time?
That's when you know you want to create a keybinding, here's a suggestion that opens a split below the current window with 10% height and starts a terminal: `nnoremap <leader>ft :belowright 10 split | terminal<CR>`
But is a terminal really what you want or do you just want to run a command? Maybe just `:!command` is enough 9/10 times that you reach for <leader>ft? In that case a common binding is `nnoremap ! :!` which puts you in that mode with a single key.
> get used to using macros as a replacement for multicursor
This exact example was how I realized the vim way is better than my assumptions. I used to install a multicursor plugin and bind to Ctrl+d because that's what I knew. When I learned macros and s/old/new it became irrelevant.
You seem to already know a lot of the possibilities that you can learn, I didn't and discoverability in vim isn't great. So I just forced myself to search for whatever I didn't know how to achieve and many times ended up learning something extremely powerful.
Today I have all sorts of useful little functions, <leader>m is make, or gcc if no Makefile exists. And now I've extended it to generate mermaid charts in markdown files and open them in my imageviewer and so on.
That's the true power of vim to me, adding standard tools from the system in keybindings and just getting it to do things MY WAY, not how I was taught it should work. It follows the unix philosophy and batteries included is by definition not part of that mentality.
1 reply →