Comment by sundarurfriend

18 hours ago

In Tamil, it still means a zero. It's usually pronounced like 'cyber' though, because Tamil doesn't have the 'f'/'ph' sound natively.

9 comments

sundarurfriend

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aiuu  18 hours ago

When someone says "it still means zero" about Tamil when responding to comments about Arabic, two languages which have no shared root and little similarity, what does that mean?

I think it means HN is full of misleading ideas.

  • Isamu  17 hours ago

    Isn’t the implication that cipher is a loanword? So language relatedness is irrelevant?

    We use “arabic” numerals around the world. So use of an Arabic loan word is unsurprising.

    • vee-kay  5 hours ago

      Cipher and "Arabic" numerals are not just loan words, they are loan concepts - from India. They originated from ancient India, because the Arabs adopted and translated those ideas and texts from the original texts written by ancient Indians/Hindus.

      Fact - Origin of Numerals and Mathematical Zero: Mathematical zero and numerals were not discovered/invented by the Arabs. There is no such thing as "Arabic" numerals because the Arabs did NOT invent numerals or cipher (to represent emptiness and/or mathematical zero).

      The Arabs learnt the concept & use of mathematical zero, numerals, decimal system, complex mathematical calculations (including the subjects we call today as Algebra, Calculus, Trignometry), etc. from the ancient Hindus/Indians. And from the Arabs, the Europeans learnt it all.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system

      Persian scholar Al Khwarizmi translated and used the Hindu/Indian numerals (including concept of mathematical zero) and "Sulba Sutras" (Hindu/Indian methods of mathematical problem solving) into the text Al-Jabr, which the Europeans translated as "Algebra" (yup, that branch of mathematics that all schoolkids worldwide learn from kindergarten).

      Origin trivia: Originating from the Sanskrit word for zero शून्य (śuṇya), via the Arabic word صفر (ṣifr), the word "cipher" spread to Europe as part of the Arabic numeral system during the Middle Ages. https://www.etymonline.com/word/cipher

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cipher#Etymology

      Fun fact: The Sanskrit word for mathematical zero and emptiness/voidness is the same: Shunya (शून्य). In fact, mathematicians are of the opinion that ancient Indians were among the first to understand the concept of mathematical zero because they understood the meaning of empty/void (Shunyata). Dhyana (meditation by focusing on voidness/stillness, away from random intrusive thoughts) is an aspect of Yoga (world's oldest active fitness discipline).

      Another fun fact: The world's oldest recorded cipher (as an example of cryptography/ encryption) is the ancient Indian epic Ramayana by Maharshi Valmiki. It has 24000 verses (Sanskrit shlokas), and the first syllable (akshara) of each 1000th verse/shloka forms a series of 24 syllables that form the sacred Sri Gayatri Mantra.

      Proofs of oldest records mathematical zero being of Indian origin, are available..

      https://thebetterindia.com/270912/chaturbhuj-temple-in-gwali...

      World's oldest known evidence of Mathematical Zero and numerals - ancient inscription on wall of Chaturbhuj temple in Gwalior, India.

      https://www.glam.ox.ac.uk/article/carbon-dating-finds-bakhsh...

      Bakhshali manuscript (stored in Oxford) from ancient India/Bharat - is the world's oldest text having Mathematical Zero and equations.

      World should know the vital mathematical concepts & representations of numerals, decimal system, binary system, algebra, calculus, trigonometry, etc. we know and use today are originated from Indian/Hindu texts and scholars.

      Both Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz claimed to be The Father of Calculus, but reality is that they likely learnt it from maths-savvy Jesuit missionaries who themselves simply carried the knowledge of Calculus to Europe from its source: The Kerala School of Mathematics from Malabar, India.

      https://www.manchester.ac.uk/about/news/indians-predated-new...

      Wikipedia used to mention that the "Arabic" numerals are originated from "Hindu" numerals, but I see that origin has been removed from Wikipedia. It is sad when historical truths are hidden from the world, and mistruths are propagated instead.

      By the way, Tamil and Sanskrit are the oldest extant (active) languages in the world.

  • sundarurfriend  10 hours ago

    The original comment was about one language that borrowed cipher from Arabic (i.e. English) where the word no longer means zero. So my comment was about a different language that also borrowed the word cipher (i.e. Tamil) where it still retains that meaning.

  • Razengan  18 hours ago

    Buddy English has no "shared root" with Japanese but we still say sushi.

    What does it mean when someone creates a new account for posting contradictory comments?