Comment by PeterHolzwarth
6 hours ago
Well, instead of repeating myself manually, I'll paste in a comment of mine here from a past discussion on carbon capture:
It's easy to forget why there is a bit of a challenge to getting C02 out of the air: there's so little of it, comparatively.
In order, air is, broadly, made up of the following:
Nitrogen: %78.084
Oxygen: %20.946
Argon: %00.934
CO2: %00.042
The stuff is essentially beyond a rounding error - it really gives one an appreciation of the "either don't release it, or capture it at the point of release" sentiment, and for the difficulties in making carbon capture outside of these scenarios be even slightly cost-effective.
Indeed. I've always had trouble picturing how to efficiently "unmix the cake" too. CO2 is rare and throughout the whole atmospheric column. What kind of concentration gradient can you get going to meaningfully pull it out from everywhere in human timescales? (Sorry if this nerd-snipes someone stronger with calculus than me.)
So then, is it really the CO2 that produces the cognitive impairment, or is the CO2 here just the proxy value that we are measuring, and the real reason for the cognitive impairment is low oxygen?
Nitrogen also causes cognitive impairment. It is essentially a very weak anesthetic. If you can replace all of the nitrogen in your breathing gas with helium then you'll probably gain the equivalent of a couple IQ points (although obviously that isn't generally practical).
If the amount of CO2 is basically a rounding error, so too would be the reduction in oxygen.
It’s also the metabolic changes in pH. CO2 is a proxy for ph as carbon dioxide acidifies the blood as it dissolves.
You could climb a mountain to test your hypothesis, keeping an eye on partial pressure of O2
We have a natural experiment. People in Denver aren't especially stupid.
I get what you're saying, but couldn't this be used in a place with high concentrations of CO2, like factory chimneys?
That would be “capture it at the point of release”
Plants seem to manage it okay.
They don't, and they can't cheat physical realities either.
Plants only filter out very small amounts of CO2 from the air over relatively long timeframes. That's why crop-based biofuels require such enormous amounts of space.
What if one started emitting Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon in the right proportions instead to get the mix right again?
I like the unconventional approach. A few minutes with GPT raises two issues:
1. We've raised CO2 from 280ppm to 420ppm, about a 50% increase. To dilute it back down would require 50% more total atmosphere. This would also raise the surface air pressure 1.5x.
2. How much heat is trapped is related to the absolute amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, not the fraction. So the diluted atmosphere would retain just as much heat.
Would it increase the steady state surface air pressure by 50%, or would more molecules offgas into outer space to compensate?
If the latter, it might actually work. Assuming they offgas at-proportion. Which they probably wouldn’t…
Interesting thought but you would need a lot of these gasses on the one hand and on the other hand it doesn’t help in working against the greenhouse effect. The greenhouse effect depends on the absolute amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, not the percentage. How much infrared light is absorbed by CO2 primarily depends on the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
My naive guess is that since CO2 takes up so few percentage, you would need an unfathomable amount of N, O, and Ar to get the mix right..?
We will unquestionably reach more than twice the CO2 concentration of pre-industrial levels (which was around 280 ppm; we're at 424 ppm now, it'll increase to beyond 560 ppm in most not-super-optimistic projections).
Do you really think it's both feasible and a good idea to release so much O2 and N2 to double the mass of the atmosphere? Or even just increase it by some appreciable fraction?
For the record, the atmosphere is around 5 150 000 000 000 000 metric tons. 5 quintillion kilograms. You're talking about producing metric exatons of gas.
Wikipedia says that there's 300 000 to a million gigatons of nitrogen in the earth's crust; that's 300 teratons to a petaton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen#Occurrence). If you extracted LITERALLY ALL THE NITROGEN IN THE CRUST, converted it to nitrogen gas and released it into the atmosphere, and we use the extremely optimistic 1 petaton estimate, you'd have increased the mass of the atmosphere by roughly 1/5000. That means you'd have decreased the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere ... by roughly 1/5000. From 424 ppm to 423.92 ppm.
These gases are refined from air to begin with.
Do they need to be?
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Think about the magnitude you’re talking about here. Every internal combustion engine on earth is emitting CO2. Every volcano, forest fire, coal power plant, etc. The atmosphere is massive. We’ve been, basically, doing our best to pump it full of CO2 for the last 150 years, and this is what we’ve got. Ignoring the chemical challenges with your idea here, the scale is impossibly gargantuan.