Comment by rao-v
5 days ago
Honestly the games issue might be out of day. Game devs have access to great services to punch through NAT at this point.
Tech finds a way…
5 days ago
Honestly the games issue might be out of day. Game devs have access to great services to punch through NAT at this point.
Tech finds a way…
Which has led to every game needing a central server running, forcing centralization where p2p used to work great. Also how Skype was able to scale on a budget, something now blocked, forcing you to raise money for more ideas than before. Running a matrix(?) node should be as simple as clicking install and it's just there, next time you're with your friends, nfc tap or whatever and your servers talk to each other directly forever going forward. But nope, there always is a gatekeeper now and they need money and that poisons everything.
I don’t think VOIP was a major factor in game centralization. The big one was selling cosmetics (easily unlock able server-side in community servers), and to some extent being able to police voice chat more. Major game publishers didn’t want to be in the news about the game with the most slurs or child grooming or what not.
Central servers are useful for more than just NAT hole-punching. They’re also great as a centralized database of records and statistics as well as a host for anti-cheating services and community standards enforcement.
Peer to Peer games with no central authority would be so rife with cheating that you’d only ever want to play with friends, not strangers. That sucks!
> Peer to Peer games with no central authority would be so rife with cheating that you’d only ever want to play with friends, not strangers. That sucks!
Back in the the day RtCW had a server anyone could run and you could give out the address:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_to_Castle_Wolfenstein
There was a server that a ISP / cable company in the southern US ran that I participate in and it was a great community with many regulars.
P2P can be awesome with the right peers.
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Cool. You decided you don't care about that, but what if I do?
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So we acknowledge v4 and CG-NAT are a problem but don't want to use the already available solution because game developers took it upon themselves to DEFEAT NAT :)
That just reminded me of a peer protocol I worked on a long time ago that used other hosts to try to figure out which hosts were getting translated. Kind of like a reverse TOR. If that was detected, the better peering hosts would send them each other's local and public addresses so they could start sending UDP packets to each other, because the NAT devices wouldn't expect the TCP handshake first and so while the first few rounds didn't make it through, it caused the NAT device(s) to create the table entries for itself.
Was it Hamachi that was the old IPX-over-IP tunneling? I'm fairly sure it used similar tricks. IPX-over-IP is also done on DOSBOX, which incidentally made it possible to play Master of Orion 2 with friends in other continents.
> That just reminded me of a peer protocol I worked on a long time ago that used other hosts to try to figure out which hosts were getting translated. Kind of like a reverse TOR. If that was detected, the better peering hosts would send them each other's local and public addresses so they could start sending UDP packets to each other,
Sounds similar to STUN, really.
If that's the VOIP thing, yes, lots of people came to similar methods. That particular thing was for exchanging state, not VOIP or tunneling, so as long as participant groups overlapped it didn't really need a fixed server to be the middle which was handy for our purposes, although long network interruptions could make reconvergence take a while.
Does make me chuckle that so many people had to be working around NAT for so long and then people are like "NAT is way better than the thing that makes us not have to deal with the problem at all." Just had a bit of NAT PTSD remembering an unrelated, but livid argument between some network teams about how a tool defeating their NAT policies was malware. They had overlapping 10.x.y.z blocks, because of course they did :)
I can spin up a NAT puncher today without having to depend on anybody. Can't say the same for IPv6.
Nat hole punching works... most of the time. There are many edge cases and weird/broken networks which you just can't work around in standard ways. You get to see all kinds of broken setups if you work at VoIP providers. That's why everyone will use a central proxy server as the last resource - you'll mostly notice it only because of a higher ping.