Comment by ofalkaed
3 days ago
I just spent way too much time reading through this thread looking for a single post more concerned about Venezuela and its people than the poster's own politics. I gave up when I noticed I was only a 1/4 of the way through thread, should have started from the bottom.
I hear you, but it takes time for these threads to play out.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
Reading a few hundred mostly low effort reactionary posts of people using the events in Venezuela as validation for their politics had a strong effect on my mood.
These sorts of events are tricky on HN, all the user can do is flag flag flag and hope you or others like you (mods) will sort it all out and give the front page its one thread on the topic, if we don't the front page will be consumed and the community will die. But we can't always rely on mods, you have lives and have to rely on certain pragmatism, you have to wait and see how the community reacts/events unfold to see if something should get a thread on the front page or risk the consequences. And I think you did weigh in but vouching on a single thread may have won out against the flagging, as it should. So I gave the thread a chance and started reading.
One of the only changes I think HN could use, is mods being able to make a post in a thread that can not be voted on or replied to but will remain top post and simply stating that the community has ruled and this submission will live but every related submission will be killed as a dupe until the thread dies. But that would be very difficult to do without being accused of having an agenda by one side or the other.
Part of the reason I avoid becoming too much a part of sites like HN is because I fear being asked to be more than a user. I do not envy your position but I appreciate all you do.
First of all, you're a great HN user (thank you!) - anyone who posts about APL and J is close to our hearts. Throw in Gaddis (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42992992 (Feb 2025)
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With some charity, you can assume that people have default concern for Venezuelans.
The politics are baffling. There hasn't even been a case made that one could disagree with. Why are we killing Venezuelans and kidnapping their president? If this is for the greater good, where is that argument?
1. Most people from Venezuela are happy Maduro is out. A striking difference with people from Ukraine about the invasion. This is the most important thing about this and most people here in comments ignore it.
2. Maduro wasn't even the president. He was someone who took the country illegally with cartel people.
3. Why? Maduro was smuggling drugs in USA. Huge operations. And I guess there must be geopolitical reasons. You want China and Russia be there? And people from Venezuela were the biggest migration wave in the World last decades. You want millions of refugees?
I think one of the best arguments against US interventionalism when it comes to tyrants is just how 'variable' (let's say) the outcomes have been over the years. For every Panama, there's two or three Guatamalas, Irans or most recently Iraq. Generally the hard part is not the removal of the head of state, which for the US is usually pretty quick. It's what beurocratic structures remain functional and whether the power vacuum created brings something better and more robust, or just decades of violence.
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> Most people from Venezuela are happy Maduro is out.
Based on what? There's a poll already about the US bombing Venezuela and kidnapping Maduro? There's a big difference between removing a leader through a legitimate domestic process and this.
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Even with those who are happy that Maduro is gone, I can't imagine they could be happy about the US "running" the country and siphoning off the oil.
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First off, I'll give you credit for at least trying to justify this, it puts you ahead of the administration that can't even bother.
Second off, only #3b above (geopolitics) could possibly count at all. We support dozens of dictators, don't give a darn about their people as long as it's geopolitically useful. So I've been conditioned to assume it's bullshit when someone says "we're doing it for the people there".
Third, and to your #3.. it's Venezuela. No disrespect to the people there but it's not exactly the lynchpin of international relations. Is this really worth it? For some crude which is really high in sulfur and not even that important given fracking? Even if I'm a Henry Kissinger psychopath, this still doesn't make sense.
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Most people in Crimea supported annexation by Russia. Does that make that one OK?
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With such a slam dunk case, it should have been a cakewalk to get UN buy-in, or at the very minimum, Republican-controlled congressional approval.
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That is a one-sided list if I can see one, you basically copying and pasting the justification for invasion
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> Maduro was smuggling drugs in USA. Huge operations.
What evidence is there of that?
> Maduro was smuggling drugs in USA
Do you have sources for this not including the official White House position?
> Most people from Venezuela are happy Maduro is out.
Is there any evidence of this?
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1) the method the US performed is irrespective of popular sentiment. If we were to buck the rules, I'm not sure if Venezuela would make the top 10 targets.
3) Trump pardoned the Honduras president. The drug smuggling excuse is moot. This is a power grab, as usual. And it came from Trump's mouth. We're no better than Russia if we choose to go with this narrative.
> He was someone who took the country illegally with cartel people.
That's an allegation. We are from a nation of laws where this behavior within it's borders would be in violation of the constitution.
> Maduro was smuggling drugs in USA
Shall we talk about what the CIA has been doing in Venezuela for decades?
> You want China and Russia be there?
The worst form of whataboutism.
> And people from Venezuela were the biggest migration wave in the World last decades.
Is that because they hate Maduro or because they need money?
> You want millions of refugees?
We already have them. Can we /please/ talk about WHY without getting distracted by nonsense drug dealing claims?
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> Why? Maduro was smuggling drugs in USA. Huge operations.
What are you talking about? The war on drugs is just a bad excuse. Trump keeps claiming that Venezuela is responsible for the fentanyl crisis, which is demonstrably wrong.
And if the US administration was so worried about drugs, why did Trump pardon Juan Orlando Hernández, ex-president of Honduras, who had been sentenced to 45 years for drug trafficking? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9qewln7912o
If Russia rolled into the United States tomorrow and deposed Trump, _most people_ would "be happy" trump was out.
It's not important at all. I've seen this exact line repeated all over the Internet today, almost like it's not a real sentiment and instead a pre seeded talking point to muddy the waters.
It is amusing to see the consent factory so efficiently spit this shit out though.
"huge operations", wtf are you talking about? get off newsweek.
You have to be pretty naive at this point to believe any of these points are actually real reasons behind this action, esp. 1 or 2.
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> you can assume that people have default concern for Venezuelans.
Let’s be real, the vast majority of Americans couldn’t even place Venezuela on a map.
The default state for humans isn’t caring about everything and everyone, nobody has the mental capacity or resources to do that.
We only care about something when we are incentivized to by actual self interest, familial bond, or emotional stories that align this 3rd party with our familial instincts via empathy.
I am perpetrating the exact wrong the parent poster referenced but: this is why liberalism is such a good principle and political position. It's almost a meta-position, and it provides clarity in circumstances like these.
Liberalism is a reductionist non-answer to realpolitik. See the sibling comment for what actual reasons there are.
Because it benefits the people in power. Probably in numerous ways.
My political reaction comes from the following chain of thought:
* My country just did something I think is wrong.
* My country is led by people elected by a process that I generally trust but believe is under stress.
* The process or the people have failed and I want to stop this from happening by fixing the process so the people are replaced.
And, now I am stuck on how to do this. There a other actions I can take to help the people of Venezuela, but from a civics perspective, I believe it is my responsibility to partake in a discussion about the systemic failure that lead to this.
I think it is common for Americans to do this because we have a history of at least trying to fix our government because we usually believe we can.
Write to your representative and senators. It may seem impotent, but it what you as an American can to today. If you are concerned it is your duty to take the 10 minutes to write. If you do not then you are condoning these actions and the erosion of your rights.
How is that helpful? You either have a blue representative that already agrees with you, or a corrupt red one that most likely don't really listen to their constituents, or at least not the one that send mail.
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My concern for Venezuelans is precisely what makes me believe "removing Maduro good" even though things are more nuanced and complex than those three words.
Destabilizing the country and/or installing a US puppet or just allowing the power vacuum to fill itself is likely not to the betterment of their people.
To be fair, I don’t think there’s any way for their lives to get even worse. So If I was Venezuelan, I’d be cautiously optimistic right now.
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A wide majority of Venezolans are happy with having Maduro out.
Source?
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The most good we can do is allowing Venezuela to live without sanctions
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/05775132.2019.16...
> This article analyzes the consequences of the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the U.S. government since August of 2017. The authors find that most of the impact of these sanctions has not been on the government but on the civilian population. The sanctions reduced the public’s caloric intake, increased disease and mortality (for both adults and infants), and displaced millions of Venezuelans who fled the country as a result of the worsening economic depression and hyperinflation. They made it nearly impossible to stabilize Venezuela’s economic crisis. These impacts disproportionately harmed the poorest and most vulnerable Venezuelans.
Why would you believe anyone the US installs as a puppet will be any better?
Surely Maduro is bad, but that doesn't mean the next phase won't be worse. Trump has never shown any interest in spreading democracy or human rights. I would not be surprised if the mission involved a side deal with someone in Maduro's inner circle to let them become the new dictator who is willing sell oil leases to the US and who will be as bad or worse to the Venezuelan populace. We have absolutely no idea what happens next and Trump has not given any indication of strategy beyond wanting oil.
I'm not sure many people will believe you saying that
Fortunately, their disbelief does not make it not true.
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Does anyone believe that the US regime, an entity that utterly ignores the needs of its masses in favor of a relative handful of lobbyists, is really going to install a representative government that exists to improve the lives of Venezuelans instead of enriching the same powers that it's beholden to?
I'm more concerned for Greenland and Canada than for Venezuela.
I believe regarding greenland the statement "we have to have it" was made by the US dictatorial leadership. Rather chilling.
It's a great point. Maduro won't be missed by anyone. But the top posted comment here perfectly captured my feelings. There's the wider picture to look at. I personally would love it if America did that to Iran, Russia, Cuba etc, but i feel there should be more of a process and i'm allowed to be suspicious of the motives.
If Venezuela actually becomes a functioning country again and drugs, gangs and illegal immigrants stop flooding America then i personally would applaud the operation. Still, you really shouldn't just kidnap other countries presidents just like that as a general rule.
Unless the said comments you want to read don't discuss how US imperialism has been benefitting corporations for over a 100 years, I wouldn't expect much honest introspection.
Crazy amount of comments - We need a tool that maps narrative angles and reply/conversational interation mapping. Ratio of comments herein to other stories is wild. Lot of lurkers on this site that seem very informed when things like this come up.
Astroturfing and opinion manipulation.
I think 2026 will be the year when we move way past that threshold. When conflicts and casualties are rare, each one gets highlighted and garners significant attention. But once you pass a certain point, it becomes just another conflict, just more people suffering. A tragic event affecting millions of people becomes another line item on a list.
How would that differ from any other year in the past 20?
Most conflicts in the last 20 years had significant coverage (ie: Iraq war, Georgia annexation, etc.). If you have 30-40 active conflicts world wide, then China invading Myanmar becomes a side-story.
Because GP is paying attention this time.
I think you're greatly exaggerating here. I'm seeing pretty nuanced discussion from everyone.
It's a political event between two countries. So people are discussing two things: What it means for Venezuela that Maduro is gone, and what it means that Trump can completely sidestep Congress to start a war. Both seem relevant. But you're trying to reduce it to something narrower. Most of us are aware that feelings in the first 24 hours of something like this are completely irrelevant. Time will tell if this is a net positive.
I have concerns about my own country because it has a big border with Venezuela.
Why does it matter? Illegal actions are illegal. On the 1 in a million chance this results in things getting better for Venezuela the outcome does not forgive the action.
There is none to be found. The people need to play the zombie apocalypse - arm and survive.
The main players: - current government - local army - invading army - chinese and Russian proxies - multiple smaller groups - opposition
And probably more will play the power struggle in the foreseeable future. Unaffiliated people will somehow need to find a way to navigate this mess
To be blunt, I simply don't have much more than the default respect for Venezuela as a country and fellow human beings. I have no special sentiment to provide in that regard. This is destructive, I hate that more innocent lives are lost over this, etc. I can't speak intimately to its culture, norms, attitudes, nor economics. So I won't talk on ignorant grounds.
Meanwhile, I hold disdain for my country's actions and have some minimal pull to at least protest and complain to my reps about it. So the focus of my discussion will be around those actions.
Care for others is an increasingly condemnable trait in public opinion nowadays, a social suicide, ironically. As history taught us it will not end well.
Its 2026, why does this surprise you?
Agreed
Americans are too culturally isolated from other countries and cultures to build empathy. I think Americans have main character syndrome at scale, and these comments are obvious when read through this lens.
This may surprise folks who don't live in the U.S., because Americans describe their country as a nation of immigrants and say things like "I'm Italian" and "I'm Irish" when describing their identity. Yet these same folks haven't set foot in Italy or Ireland, don't speak the language or have awareness of present-day concerns from those countries.
I think it's worse than that. There's a general unwillingness to engage with uncomfortable things. Can't really build empathy if there isn't space to talk about problems.
the entire readership of this website is clueless, it’s an echo chamber. Unless you write a thoroughly detailed contra comment you get downvoted. If you say Elon is good you get downvoted. I do not want to source my comments, I work a job! Maybe Elon is sometimes good and sometimes bad. Maybe I don’t want to drop how I know something because my employer would be very mad.
You can no longer get the full picture because all the guys with alpha (investing term) left and post on Twitter/X now. All rando accounts without their faces. Anything interesting for AI is on there now and you can chat with the actual researchers too, you don’t need to bump into them at a shoes off party after work.
There’s a lot of very uncomfortable discussion on Twitter/X if you can stomach it, you’ll end up with a much clearer picture of the world. There’s a lot of dumb stuff on there too! You have to sift through it.
HN hit its Eternal September. There’s still some really great technical stuff you can find on here though. I don’t know how long the decline has been but it doesn’t seem to be getting better.
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You’re not doing our image any favors.