> On the flip side, I firmly believe a lot of the issues that we are having societally with regards to hormone imbalance, mental health and fertility issues really comes down to insufficient intake of essential fatty acids which include some saturated fats.
Why werent those issues in the late 19th century? We certainly ate very, very little meat and didn't have any fertility issues.
I'm saying that, but even nowadays, the countries with the highest fertility are those where people eat the less meat.
People also seem to forget the impact of lead on society just a couple decades back, and how we are probably going through a similar event now with microplastics. Not to mention many artificial sweeteners, ultra-processed foods, preservatives, etc. as well as widespread use of industrial chemicals.
Plus, it's amazing how collective stress can warp a society over time.
Some issues take effect or only become seriously problematic over multiple generations. It's also a matter of proportions... at what point does a lack of testosterone become an issue in men? Do you necessarily notice?
There's also the confounding factor of birth control and other measures reducing the noticeability of decreased fertility.
Since pretty much the beginning of agriculture until very recently (and with some localized exceptions on some coastlines, depending on the available fishes), fatty acid just werent available. "Margarine" isn't coming from nowhere, and it is _very_ telling that it was "invented" (or rather, re-discovered) during the first industrial revolution. A vegetarian today will eat overall more saturated fat and animal proteins than the vast majority of people in agrarian societies pre-1950.
Over way more generations.
In any case, i think its the reverse actually. Plants bio-accumulate way, way less than animals, and eating to much fish or meat leads to issues with lead accumulation, or hormonal imbalance (which is less of an issue in europe, since we don't allow growth hormones in our meat). Since animal protein are sightly more bio-available, i also think vegans are foolish, and the truth is clearly in the middle, and you should eat both animal and vegetal proteins (as long as you don't follow the US government guideline on protein intake: the values are what my sister recommended for semi-pro athletes when she worked as a nutritionist).
There are an incredible amount of contaminants and disruptions in today's society. There are far too many possible causes for us to be sure, without process of elimination, that lack of fat of all things is the central cause of the problems you have listed.
Also, I'm not sure if a vegan hurt you or something, but yes in fact there are many of us who believe today's meat farming industry is nothing short of barbaric and extremely damaging to the environment. But believe it or not, most vegans understand protein better than the average person, and make sure to get fats and complete proteins from a variety of sources which don't require industrial-scale torture of helpless animals.
industrial-scale torture of helpless tasty animals.
I did this in jest, but I think this is maybe the main barrier to pulling back on meat consumption. It tastes too damn good.
I am well educated, and would perhaps like to reduce my meat consumption. Until I realize that nearly 100% of my favorite dishes contain meat. And if we expand to milk or eggs, that list expands to 100%.
Food is weird because it sits in an intersection of physiological need, pleasure, craft, and culture.
I like cooking, but many days I wish I could just eat a daily nutrition block and go back to my business :)
And I totally feel you on the taste thing. Meat tastes good, and we're used to it!
I'd recommend looking at some dishes from various Asian cuisines, for example Indian food. The problem with American cuisine is that we've been conditioned to expect meat as part of every meal, three times a day. Even just reducing your meat intake by one meal a day, or even just a few meals a week, can make a massive difference collectively.
I was a vegetarian in my teens, but I suffered from frequent fainting (this had been going on both before and after I was vegetarian, it was just worse during that period), sometimes at really unsettling moments like while shaving my face. I eventually seemed to grow out of these fainting spells, but I went back to eating meat for years.
And the entire time, I recognized the taste of meat as my main barrier to giving it back up. I finally made progress by removing or heavily reducing consumption of one meat at a time. First pork, then beef and other things, and then finally chicken.
Even today, I am a pescatarian and occasionally eat a little fish, shellfish and dairy. I also eat a lot of eggs. Dairy farming still involves what I consider torture however and I have worked to significantly reduce my intake. I really don't mind vegan cheese or even just shredded cashews as a replacement.
I don't feel bad eating mussels, oysters, etc. so I don't think I'll ever stop eating those, but I have significantly reduced the amount of fish I eat as well. I get nervous because I don't want to start fainting again, but I just track my protein and try to get it wherever I can, for example sprouted protein bread, eggs, whey, hemp and pea powders in smoothies, etc.
I am allergic to legumes... as are a lot of other people... so when vegans talk about outlawing meat, you're literally talking about killing me.
I'm fine if YOU or anyone else wants to live without meat... I'm even fine with improving quality of life for farmed animals... but I draw a hard, firm line at outlawing meat.
Nothing in my comment addressed outlawing meat. It's especially absurd to think that any sane person, vegan or not, would want to prevent someone from eating meat if a medical condition limits their options.
What you're doing is projecting an insecurity you have that vegans want to outlaw meat onto my comment, and I'm not even a vegan. This creates a straw man, and now we are off-topic, discussing something I never proposed.
> I'm even fine with improving quality of life for farmed animals
Americans eat more meat and especially more red meat than most other people on the planet. Why aren't we killing it on hormone balance, mental health, and fertility?
If the claim is that a lack of meat in our diets is what is causing these issues then I'd expect there to be some connection in the data. It is possible that all of the benefit we get from our meat eating habits are overwhelmed by other harmful effects. But if that is the case then surely "change those other harmful effects" is more valuable than "increase meat consumption further."
There is A LOT of evidence that diets high in saturated fats cause heart disease and the whole plethora of metabolic diseases that go with it. It's basically undeniable that red meat is just, like, bad for you.
Not to mention processed red meats are in the same classification of carcinogen as alcohol and Tabacoo. And regular red meat is still higher up than aspartame, aka diet coke.
Meat can be good for you. But it shouldn't take a genius to deduce that a diet of steaks, cheeseburgers, milkshakes, and bacon probably is not.
I don't think that's true. Most of that evidence includes bacon and processed red meats in their studies. We're much less confident that unprocessed red meat is unhealthy.
We are very confident that high saturated fat causes metabolic disorders, and we're more confident that unprocessed red meat causes cancer than we are there aspartame causes cancer. Which is really saying something, because it seems like in the zeitgeist everyone just thinks diet coke is cancer juice.
Point is, health is complicated, and replacing kale and spinach with cheeseburgers and milkshakes is a bad deal. Ultimately I think most people eat PLENTY of meat. But they certainly don't eat plenty of high-fiber foods like vegetables.
The most significant physical experiment on the issue seems to suggest otherwise. Beyond this, "Kaplan Meier graphs showed no mortality benefit for the intervention group in the full randomized cohort or for any prespecified subgroup."
Reducing saturated fat can reduce serum cholesterol... that doesn't mean improved all cause mortality or coronary events.
if veganism was a real problem we'd have it made, that's the least of our worries... americans aren't dying at an alarming rate from heart disease because they've been lead astray from vegans
there's been little change in overall meat consumption in the US for decades... and it's actually higher than most places in the world
I don't think veganism is a societal problem.. but I do think it's a personal problem. The vegans I've known that have done it for a long period have had all sorts of weird health issues that could be attributed to malnutrition (if they actually had labs done, which they generally don't). To be a healthy vegan you generally have to take a lot of vitamins or eat an impractically high volume, which to me suggests it's a bad diet (health wise. Ethically, great!).
What kind of weird health issues? in my experience most vitamin deficiencies can be managed with slight effort and a single daily multivitamin. IMO it beats the pants off of being part of the American obesity epidemic that creates problems for 40% of the population.
But, if Americans ate more meat then the people who grow and sell that meat would make more money, and they would spend more of that money to lobby congresspeople to convince the populace to eat more meat so they would make more money so they would have more money to spend lobbying the congresspeople to convince the populace to eat more meat so they would make more money
> On the flip side, I firmly believe a lot of the issues that we are having societally with regards to hormone imbalance, mental health and fertility issues really comes down to insufficient intake of essential fatty acids which include some saturated fats.
Why werent those issues in the late 19th century? We certainly ate very, very little meat and didn't have any fertility issues.
I'm saying that, but even nowadays, the countries with the highest fertility are those where people eat the less meat.
People also seem to forget the impact of lead on society just a couple decades back, and how we are probably going through a similar event now with microplastics. Not to mention many artificial sweeteners, ultra-processed foods, preservatives, etc. as well as widespread use of industrial chemicals.
Plus, it's amazing how collective stress can warp a society over time.
Some issues take effect or only become seriously problematic over multiple generations. It's also a matter of proportions... at what point does a lack of testosterone become an issue in men? Do you necessarily notice?
There's also the confounding factor of birth control and other measures reducing the noticeability of decreased fertility.
Since pretty much the beginning of agriculture until very recently (and with some localized exceptions on some coastlines, depending on the available fishes), fatty acid just werent available. "Margarine" isn't coming from nowhere, and it is _very_ telling that it was "invented" (or rather, re-discovered) during the first industrial revolution. A vegetarian today will eat overall more saturated fat and animal proteins than the vast majority of people in agrarian societies pre-1950.
Over way more generations.
In any case, i think its the reverse actually. Plants bio-accumulate way, way less than animals, and eating to much fish or meat leads to issues with lead accumulation, or hormonal imbalance (which is less of an issue in europe, since we don't allow growth hormones in our meat). Since animal protein are sightly more bio-available, i also think vegans are foolish, and the truth is clearly in the middle, and you should eat both animal and vegetal proteins (as long as you don't follow the US government guideline on protein intake: the values are what my sister recommended for semi-pro athletes when she worked as a nutritionist).
There are an incredible amount of contaminants and disruptions in today's society. There are far too many possible causes for us to be sure, without process of elimination, that lack of fat of all things is the central cause of the problems you have listed.
Also, I'm not sure if a vegan hurt you or something, but yes in fact there are many of us who believe today's meat farming industry is nothing short of barbaric and extremely damaging to the environment. But believe it or not, most vegans understand protein better than the average person, and make sure to get fats and complete proteins from a variety of sources which don't require industrial-scale torture of helpless animals.
> industrial-scale torture of helpless animals.
industrial-scale torture of helpless tasty animals.
I did this in jest, but I think this is maybe the main barrier to pulling back on meat consumption. It tastes too damn good.
I am well educated, and would perhaps like to reduce my meat consumption. Until I realize that nearly 100% of my favorite dishes contain meat. And if we expand to milk or eggs, that list expands to 100%.
Food is weird because it sits in an intersection of physiological need, pleasure, craft, and culture.
I like cooking, but many days I wish I could just eat a daily nutrition block and go back to my business :)
And I totally feel you on the taste thing. Meat tastes good, and we're used to it!
I'd recommend looking at some dishes from various Asian cuisines, for example Indian food. The problem with American cuisine is that we've been conditioned to expect meat as part of every meal, three times a day. Even just reducing your meat intake by one meal a day, or even just a few meals a week, can make a massive difference collectively.
I was a vegetarian in my teens, but I suffered from frequent fainting (this had been going on both before and after I was vegetarian, it was just worse during that period), sometimes at really unsettling moments like while shaving my face. I eventually seemed to grow out of these fainting spells, but I went back to eating meat for years.
And the entire time, I recognized the taste of meat as my main barrier to giving it back up. I finally made progress by removing or heavily reducing consumption of one meat at a time. First pork, then beef and other things, and then finally chicken.
Even today, I am a pescatarian and occasionally eat a little fish, shellfish and dairy. I also eat a lot of eggs. Dairy farming still involves what I consider torture however and I have worked to significantly reduce my intake. I really don't mind vegan cheese or even just shredded cashews as a replacement.
I don't feel bad eating mussels, oysters, etc. so I don't think I'll ever stop eating those, but I have significantly reduced the amount of fish I eat as well. I get nervous because I don't want to start fainting again, but I just track my protein and try to get it wherever I can, for example sprouted protein bread, eggs, whey, hemp and pea powders in smoothies, etc.
I am allergic to legumes... as are a lot of other people... so when vegans talk about outlawing meat, you're literally talking about killing me.
I'm fine if YOU or anyone else wants to live without meat... I'm even fine with improving quality of life for farmed animals... but I draw a hard, firm line at outlawing meat.
Nothing in my comment addressed outlawing meat. It's especially absurd to think that any sane person, vegan or not, would want to prevent someone from eating meat if a medical condition limits their options.
What you're doing is projecting an insecurity you have that vegans want to outlaw meat onto my comment, and I'm not even a vegan. This creates a straw man, and now we are off-topic, discussing something I never proposed.
> I'm even fine with improving quality of life for farmed animals
That's gracious of you.
> I draw a hard, firm line at outlawing meat.
Can we get back on topic now?
2 replies →
Americans eat more meat and especially more red meat than most other people on the planet. Why aren't we killing it on hormone balance, mental health, and fertility?
If you consume a few grams of lead and then a carrot, are you suddenly healthy?
If the claim is that a lack of meat in our diets is what is causing these issues then I'd expect there to be some connection in the data. It is possible that all of the benefit we get from our meat eating habits are overwhelmed by other harmful effects. But if that is the case then surely "change those other harmful effects" is more valuable than "increase meat consumption further."
1 reply →
There is A LOT of evidence that diets high in saturated fats cause heart disease and the whole plethora of metabolic diseases that go with it. It's basically undeniable that red meat is just, like, bad for you.
Not to mention processed red meats are in the same classification of carcinogen as alcohol and Tabacoo. And regular red meat is still higher up than aspartame, aka diet coke.
Meat can be good for you. But it shouldn't take a genius to deduce that a diet of steaks, cheeseburgers, milkshakes, and bacon probably is not.
I don't think that's true. Most of that evidence includes bacon and processed red meats in their studies. We're much less confident that unprocessed red meat is unhealthy.
We are very confident that high saturated fat causes metabolic disorders, and we're more confident that unprocessed red meat causes cancer than we are there aspartame causes cancer. Which is really saying something, because it seems like in the zeitgeist everyone just thinks diet coke is cancer juice.
Point is, health is complicated, and replacing kale and spinach with cheeseburgers and milkshakes is a bad deal. Ultimately I think most people eat PLENTY of meat. But they certainly don't eat plenty of high-fiber foods like vegetables.
2 replies →
The most significant physical experiment on the issue seems to suggest otherwise. Beyond this, "Kaplan Meier graphs showed no mortality benefit for the intervention group in the full randomized cohort or for any prespecified subgroup."
Reducing saturated fat can reduce serum cholesterol... that doesn't mean improved all cause mortality or coronary events.
https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i1246
This is one study, we have dozens if not hundreds that demonstrate that lowering serum cholesterol does lower your risk of CVD.
1 reply →
if veganism was a real problem we'd have it made, that's the least of our worries... americans aren't dying at an alarming rate from heart disease because they've been lead astray from vegans
there's been little change in overall meat consumption in the US for decades... and it's actually higher than most places in the world
I don't think veganism is a societal problem.. but I do think it's a personal problem. The vegans I've known that have done it for a long period have had all sorts of weird health issues that could be attributed to malnutrition (if they actually had labs done, which they generally don't). To be a healthy vegan you generally have to take a lot of vitamins or eat an impractically high volume, which to me suggests it's a bad diet (health wise. Ethically, great!).
What kind of weird health issues? in my experience most vitamin deficiencies can be managed with slight effort and a single daily multivitamin. IMO it beats the pants off of being part of the American obesity epidemic that creates problems for 40% of the population.
But, if Americans ate more meat then the people who grow and sell that meat would make more money, and they would spend more of that money to lobby congresspeople to convince the populace to eat more meat so they would make more money so they would have more money to spend lobbying the congresspeople to convince the populace to eat more meat so they would make more money
I'm not convinced that advertising is why my refrigerator contains steak, chicken, octopus, salmon, and bacon.
I think my tongue and my belly are the real conspirators.
7 replies →
> I think that veganism and the Seventh Day Adventist church has done a lot of harm to health and nutrition over the years
This is your bubble, get off twitter.
This is your bias... I'm not referring to Twitter.