Comment by roadside_picnic

4 days ago

The key word here is "Wall Street". And this statement is playing off a popular misconception around corporate investors buying up American houses.

There has been a bit of a panic around "Investors buying up all the property!!!" With people often citing Black Rock and Blackstone as the main culprits. But most of the "investors" buying up property are individuals purchasing investment properties.

Here's an article on the topic from 2023[0], a bit old but my understanding is large institutional investment in residential real estate was already starting to cool down.

Black rock isn't buying up all the housing, your neighbors are.

I suspect this statement, and even if it becomes an actual ban, is largely to gain wider popular support around a largely imaginary concern people have.

0. https://www.housingwire.com/articles/no-wall-street-investor...

It's not that simple - the problem is that those institutions are market makers. They are a tiny portion of the market, but a huge driving force in setting and manipulating prices, because their properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives that you don't normally want operating in the arena of housing.

The things that they do have massively outsized downstream impact contrasted against their relatively tiny overall participation in the market, and they can afford to behave in ways that manipulate the behavior of the majority.

If you can decouple them from the housing markets, you also decouple the interests of the donor class, and you allow for policy that doesn't maximize the cost of real estate over the interests of the majority of the population.

  • > They are a tiny portion of the market, but a huge driving force in setting and manipulating prices, because their properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives that you don't normally want operating in the arena of housing.

    Raising prices when you only have a tiny portion of the market does not work. People won't buy them when there's another house for less.

    • It's not just raising prices - it's holding prices steady at some point without the concurrent pressure to sell, for example, or manipulating other markets in order to raise or lower prices in an area, or using other mechanics to manipulate pricing, across the entire market, depending on the intended actions. If they intend to purchase properties, it benefits them to depress pricing in the area, if they intend to rent, they can afford to impose artificial scarcity until they force renters to meet their rates, and so on.

      Normal landlords don't have effectively infinite money with no forces bearing prices down, nor do they have the capabilities to influence markets. Even tiny percentage shifts can result in significant fluctuations in the prices consumers see. It's a very nuanced and complex system in which these institutional investors have very outsized influence.

      150 replies →

    • I don't think that's quite what the comment is claiming. They're not saying that some small portion of homeowners are working together to raise prices. I think they're more talking about the concept of "marginal buyers." It's the marginal buyer that sets prices, not the average buyer. And particularly when supply is heavily restricted, the marginal buyers can be a very tiny portion of all buyers, and can look very different from the average buyer.

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    • Define "tiny portion of the market", especially "market".

      There are many houses in the US. Not all of them are for sale. There's a difference between having a "tiny portion of the market" when you define "the market" as all houses in the US, and "tiny portion of the market" when you define "the market" as the houses that are actively being bought and sold. I would not be surprised if corporate involvement was a significantly higher proportion of the latter rather than the former.

      It takes a lot less to put your thumb on the scale of the "liquid" portion of a stock if it is significantly smaller in size than the total stock.

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    • That's the problem, they don't care if people will buy or rent them. They literally just sit on them writing off any losses against other business units.

      When enough institutional investors are all doing that same thing, the market suppply becomes restricted, especially in focused regional areas. It ends up indistinguishable from collusionary antitrust, though there's no actual communicated collusion so it's not technically illegal. In a normal situation like that, all it takes is a single participant to cave and drops prices to take advantage of the demand. But in this case the institutional investors can keep taking the losses indefinitely so no one ever feels the need or benefit to "break" first, and they can maintain it forever.

    • I generally agree with you on market discussions, but I don't think you're considering this one correctly. Imagine a country responsible for just 10% of global oil production decided to stop producing. What's going to happen oil prices assuming no other country starts producing more?

      They're going to skyrocket in a seemingly irrational way. But it's completely rational. The reason is that they're a finite resource that is needed, and so there is very minimal price elasticity. People will pay as low as they can, but simultaneously must have oil and so have a practically uncapped price ceiling if that's all that's available. The same is true of housing.

      You're right that people won't, generally speaking, buy a house for $100 when there's another one for sale for $80. But what you've done there is greatly increase the demand for that $80 house, which is now going to naturally send its price upwards.

      ---

      Finally there's the issue that figures on the percent of homes that are owned by investment groups are misleading, because they aren't just buying homes randomly. They're going to pick up lots of houses in precise areas, and so the impact on prohibiting this behavior will be dramatic in these areas.

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    • Going by the graph in the article, that's still ~13% of homes owned by investors with >5 properties. And that's total of what is currently held, it speaks nothing of liquidity. That number likely includes investors who have had that property for a long time, the current property buy-up likely means far greater than 13% of the market right now is going to those sorts of aggregators.

      Dropping the price of a house by a few percentage points can be the make-or-break for some families. And small changes in availability can have large impacts on price.

      If we banned (or severely penalized) all entities from owning more than 5 residential homes, this would probably reduce cost by a few percentage points across the board. That's thousands of dollars.

      Personally, I think unoccupied homes in general ought to be penalized (beyond just tax burden, an actual vacancy tax).

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    • The thing is that there is only a tiny portion of houses ever selling at any time. The only ones that would benefit from selling are people who are downsizing or moving away.

      If you buy 60% of the properties on market, the rest will see this and adjust their own prices. Usually this only works when the macro is favourable (low interest rates, easy mortgage applications, etc.), but it is definitely a large factor. It sometimes creates a even hotter market, with people thinking that real estate goes up forever, then they sell.

      You're right that it's not always large investment groups. Vancouver in Canada had the same thing happen, but mostly from foreign investors and criminals washing money. The latter was facilitated by politicians who cashed in big on this.

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    • > People won't buy them when there's another house for less.

      As others have pointed out housing markets are illiquid and tend to have a limited set of sellers at any given time such that the race-to-the-bottom doesn’t happen very often.

      Rather, an institutional investor buys high on houses in desired neighborhoods then charge high rents on their portfolio. Subsequent sellers in the same neighborhood see the high closing price and ask for even more.

    • You don't have to control the whole market to manipulate it. Housing is localized and the ideal situation is people hold onto their homes for decades before going on the market again and spend months if not years looking at purchasing a home. But investments into single family homes operates on completely different timescales and pace with an entirely separate list of considerations and values.

    • When a strongly capitalized minority cohort can sustain positions that are untenable for normal market participants, they can act as a kingmaker by shaping outcomes at the margin.

  •     > because their properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives that you don't normally want operating in the arena of housing.
    

    I assume that you are already aware that regular home buyers use debt, and, thus lots(!) of leverage to buy their homes. The average down payment for first time buyers in the US is about 10%. That is a lot of leverage! Probably much more than corporate buyers of residential homes.

        > instrumentalized
    

    What does this term mean? I have never seen it before. My spell checker does recognize it as a word.

        > securitized
    

    Regular home buyers almost always enter into borrowing agreements with their bank that fit loan buying programmes with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. This allows for most of these loans to be securitized into MBS.

        > with derivative products
    

    Can you give an example scenario / product? Else, this feels like handwaving. CDS on MBS is an absolutely tiny market these days.

        > speculation
    

    There is already plenty of speculation from regular home buyers in the US. Do you have any suggestions to reduce the existing speculation by these regular buyers?

  • The vast majority of land in the country has been owned by capitalistic profit motivated players since 1776 - individual home owner occupiers.

    If you doubt they will lobby to increase their profit, try proposing anything that has a 0.1% risk of their property value going down and see how they react.

  • An article making that case: https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/messing-with-texas-how-bi...

    A rebuttal to that article from Derek Thompson: https://www.derekthompson.org/p/the-anti-abundance-critique-...

    • Noah Smith on "Corporations aren't the reason your rent is too high", with nice things to say about Thompson:

      https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/corporations-arent-the-reason-...

      Quoting Thompson:

      "The U.S. has roughly 140 million housing units, a broad category that includes mansions, tiny townhouses, and apartments of all sizes. Of those 140 million units, about 80 million are stand-alone single-family homes. Of those 80 million, about 15 million are rental properties. Of those 15 million single-family rentals, institutional investors own about 300,000; most of the rest are owned by individual landlords. Of that 300,000, the real-estate rental company Invitation Homes—in which BlackRock is an investor—owns about 80,000. (To clear up a common confusion: The investment firm Blackstone, not BlackRock, established Invitation Homes. Don’t yell at me; I didn’t name them.)

      Megacorps such as BlackRock, then, are not removing a large share of the market from individual ownership. Rental-home companies own less than half of one percent of all housing, even in states such as Texas, where they were actively buying up foreclosed properties after the Great Recession. Their recent buying has been small compared with the overall market."

  • “properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives”

    Spoken like someone has no clue what they are talking about and just throwing out jargon

    • The truth is that BlackRock buying rental properties is the opposite of that. The foundation of the MBS market is in its name: mortgages.

  • I somehow doubt these institutions are market makers in the housing market, if they had been ones then they'd be offering to sell and buy houses all the time, this is a market maker's function.

  • Not buying this. Have you seen studies that support this line of arguments?

  • Why doesn't your explanation apply to every commodity? Gold, cocoa, mustard seed, electricity? These are also essential products subject to the influence of markets and market makers.

    • You can substitute cocoa sources globally, but you can't substitute a house in Charlotte with one in Phoenix.

      If cocoa prices spike, you buy less chocolate. If housing prices spike in your job market, your options are: pay more, endure a brutal commute, or uproot your life. The demand is far more inelastic.

    • > Gold, cocoa, mustard seed, electricity

      I can easily live a full and meaningful life without owning gold, drinking cocoa or eating mustard. Those aren't essential and have decent substitutes.

      Electricity is essential, just like housing and it's very highly regulated.

      3 replies →

  • A “market maker” provides liquidity that allows trades to clear and keeps prices stable. They make money on the bid-ask spread. They don’t have leverage to raise or lower prices.

  • If what you say is true, wouldn't the same argument apply to practically every market these institutions are in? Oil, timber, steel, AI stuff, cars, you name it.

  • If you have a model where you can do price manipulation of something while owning 1% of it, I understand why you wouldn’t share it. Where are you on the Forbes Billionaire List, out of curiosity?

  • Supply and demand sets prices.

    The gobbledygook you posted, “ properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives that you don't normally want operating in the arena of housing”, is just that, gobbledygook.

    Just because a buyer as Inc. behind its name doesn’t give it magical powers to set market prices.

    If you think it does, then please explain it to us like we are really slow.

  • > you allow for policy that doesn't maximize the cost of real estate over the interests of the majority of the population.

    How do you think homeowners would feel about a policy that doesn't maximize the value of their homes. That's just another way to phrase "maximizing the cost of real estate"?

  • Based on the data I've seen, respectfully, you are wrong. No, I can't share it. The data is publicly available, however. Feel free to dig it up and aggregate it. The data is publicly available, the effort to dig into it, finding meaning, and sell it to folks, however, is not.

    • What I don't understand is how this new type of asset is above reproach.

      I mean BlackRock and Blackstone creating securities backed by real estate in general, not only single family homes.

      What if this new type of asset signals to the broader real estate market that regulators favor large investors?

      Even more likely, what if this new type of asset succeeds at the expense of first time home buyers?

Controversial, but for affordability reasons, there even should be a cap on how many homes an individual can own for rentals. For the sanity in the housing market, members of society need to be driven to participate in other business activities for income/revenue, not rentals.

  • This is basically a maximum wage for landlords, bound to start a secret society.

    IMO it's a crooked notion that landlords are rent seeking and nothing else - they do create supply and maintain housing.

    Issue is when they want to politically and artificially raise the value of their property by preventing more housing from being built, so, if you're going to ban something, ban artificial regulations on construction!

    North Carolina has done some good by loosening up code around tiny homes, but, a lot of municipalities want to enforce big homes only because they like the property tax of high value houses, 4 bedroom and all. Small town I'm in basically won't allow expansion of housing because the people that live here don't want the village to get any bigger, but if it's democratic like that I'm mostly OK with it, it's when there's demand for housing and someone with a perverse incentive to block it that we should want to solve for.

    • No, the real problem is that the vast majority of their income does not come from their role in creating supply or maintaining housing.

      Proof: Propose a 100% land value tax, which definitionally only removes that part of income that is generated by the community around their property, and see if they go for it.

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    • > IMO it's a crooked notion that landlords are rent seeking and nothing else - they do create supply and maintain housing.

      They don’t create supply in any way, the only ones who do that are builders. But sure they maintain houses. Although just the bare minimum, they will never fix it nicely - just enough to rent it out.

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    • "Rent seeking" has nothing to do with landlords and tenants. It's about buying legislation that forces people to give you money for nothing.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

      Tenants who rent property get something tangible in exchange for their cash - exclusive use of the property.

      Just because the word "rent" is common to both, doesn't mean they are connected in any way.

      12 replies →

    • > if it's democratic like that I'm mostly OK with it

      One thing to keep in mind. It might be that it's "democratic" in that all the homeowners are allowed to vote for or against the zoning policy (or for or against the local leaders who set zoning policy) but ONLY the local homeowners are allowed to vote. Those who rent (or who can't even afford to rent) live in a different district and aren't allowed to participate in the election.

      If that's the case, then voting doesn't represent "the will of the people", just the will of those people permitted to participate.

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    • > This is basically a maximum wage for landlords

      Well sure, but it's good to incentivize looking for sources of wages other than (literally) rent-seeking.

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    • The municipality cares about the taxes, sure but it goes far beyond that. Literally everyone in every department is more convenienced by attracting the well off and being hostile to those who aren't. Those rich people in those big houses with their big assets are much "easier to own" for the town than a bunch of rowdy generally noncompliant trailer trash who crank out a bunch of kids who need services, have poor elderly who need services, don't goose step in line without a bunch of enforcement, can't pay the taxes to pay for the "do we really need this" equipment and facilities government always wants, the working parents can't pick up the slack if the schools slip and scores will show it, etc, etc, etc.

      Growing municipalities kind of have to choose if they want to become bedroom communities or industrial/business communities and if they choose the former optimizing for rich people is the easy lazy not sticking their neck out choice and what does government employment optimize for if not retaining people disposed toward that sort of decision making.

    • I'm not sure if this is what you mean by secret society, but I could well imagine that these kind of limits would be hard to enforce. Like a person creates shell corporations to own their properties on their behalf, or buys them in the name of their kids, or employs randos to "own" pieces of their portfolio.

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    • > landlords are rent seeking and nothing else

      Noone says it's nothing else. But rent seeking is a big component of it, you just focus on other minor parts.

      In general, locking down some limited but critical commodity (e.g. land) is bad for any economic system. It doesn't really matter whether it's "Wall Street" or "your neighbor". A healthy economy is geared towards creating an added value.

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    • Renting should be viewed is a negative in society. Imagine if car dealerships moved to a rental model instead of ownership..oh wait, they sort of already are, they just call it "financing", they make no money from cash buys because of that economic perversion.

      Rent income is not wages, that's the critical part you're mistaken. Income and wages are not the same thing. Rent income is as much wages as Elon Musk selling stocks is to him, or a bank making income on interest payments. Renting is a business, it's income is business revenue, not wages.

      There is this terrible view that landlords are "just like you and me, hard working regular people" - not that it's false, but so are the people that own mom & pops shops, or a local subway franchise, they're all business owners making business profits, not wages.

      Business practices that harm the public should be regulated and curtailed. With taxis for example, the medallion system was used to limit the number of Taxis in operation. Similarly, not only should an individual be limited to (directly or via an ownership/shareholder interest in a company -- even with them or their family) a reasonable number of properties, but the number of rental properties in an area should itself be limited. Property owners can either sell houses, or sell condos and make income via condo (regulated) condo fees.

      Food, shelter, health-care/medicine should be heavily regulated, if private parties take part as intermediaries between individuals and their food, shelter, health-care, they should expect lots of red-tape and limits. Ideally, the government itself would be driving these markets directly by building and selling properties, hospitals, pharmacies, grocery stores, etc.. that's not socialism or communism. That's just common-sense capitalism, everyone, especially the richest make more money this way. not only that their money will spend better this way.

      The kind of capitalism we have now is a short-sighted parasitical money-grab. The kind where if fully realized, you'll build your own mansions and sky scrapers but you'd be complaining about the slums and crime nearby, how you can't get good help, skilled labor, and spend a ton of money on bribes instead of paying a fraction of that in taxes.

      In theory, reaganism and trickle-down economics could have worked. A rising tide does indeed lift all boats. But in reality, it's more of the "scorpion and the frog" story. In this case, landlords can own a reasonable number of decent homes and make decent income, and then diversify the money in other markets. But currently, it's a race to become the biggest slumlord or until the markets collapse again.

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    • If nothing else, landlords should be held to much stricter standards for maintenance and the overall state of their properties.

      What’d make sense for me is if a rental has a documented history of being poorly maintained, past some threshold the property can be auctioned off, with the proceeds going towards funding public housing. This should help filter slumlords and bare-minimum-effort speculators.

  • > Controversial, but for affordability reasons, there even should be a cap on how many homes an individual can own for rentals.

    Here in Norway the solution, as with so many other things, is taxing. Your home is evaluated at some "market rate", but if it's your primary residence the effective tax value is just 25% up to $1 million (70% on value above $1 million). For reference, a typical 3-room apartment in Oslo, the capital, is around $400-500k.

    However, if it's not your primary residence, then you pay tax on 100% of the "market rate". The tax rate is 1%, so not insignificant.

    Until a few years ago, tax on non-primary residences was much lower, and hence we had a lot more people buying to rent if they inherited money or similar. Some even had a dozen or more properties. These have now exited, so policy is working as intended.

    One thing of course politicians for some reason didn't think of is that if most of the landlords suddenly sell, rental market will shrink. So now it's super-expensive to rent, and those who rent usually do so because they can't buy for one reason or another (no stable income to support a loan for example).

    • So you created a policy that takes money from the lower/working classes and those on welfare (restricting rental supply for those who rent) and transfers it as a tax subsidy to the middle class (who own) and are offering this up as "good" policy?

      You've also encouraged your middle class to massively over-leverage themselves to a single house/apartment by creating a huge tax subsidy for them (from 30-75%), which will no doubt continue placing upward pressure on house prices and also create risks if interest rates increase. Why would you not take the biggest loan the bank will offer, given interest rates are quite low in Europe and you will not be taxed on most of the value of that property you can acquire with leverage?

      Crazy thought, did your politicians ever think about the idea of NOT subsidizing the demand side at all? If the issue is the price of housing, subsidizing demand for it in any way is going to make that problem worse!

  • Landlord, or property management, is a job, same as any other job you might have. The problem is not owning multiple properties, but not paying enough taxes on land. Otherwise, landlords benefit from the free lunch that comes with economic growth and real estate price appreciation, which is true for every homeowners in this country.

    IF you want affordability? Tax land.

    Doesn't matter who owns them. Your grandma or wall street.

    • > Landlord, or property management,

      This is literally not true.

      A landlord owns the property. Property managers operate the property. Sometimes these are the same people (in mom and pop scenarios), but typically and at scale they certainly are not.

      Property management is a job. Landlording is not. It is simply owning an asset.

      +1 on taxing land though.

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    • > Landlord, or property management, is a job, same as any other job you might have.

      Let's ignore property management for now and focus on landlords (i.e. people who own homes and collect rent from the people who live in the homes). That is very much not the same as any other job. Most jobs do not consistent entirely of literally rent-seeking.

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    • No. If you want affordability, make the government efficient and tax people LESS.

      The government steals half of my money, half of my landlord's money, and I have to pay my landlord’s income and property tax in addition to my own income tax.

      This is why I still cannot afford a home even though I work in a senior role in AI. After paying all those damn taxes and everyone else’s taxes there is almost nothing left.

      5 replies →

  • For affordability reasons, just build more housing. It doesn't matter how many houses anyone owns if you just build. more. housing.

    • This is obviously correct. Somehow people just can't accept the pigeonhole principle that if X people are trying to buy Y houses and X>>Y, a lot of them are going to be disappointed regardless of what laws you pass.

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    • > It doesn't matter how many houses anyone owns if you just build. more. housing.

      That's what people with disproportionate access to capital would want people to believe. It absolutely matters if there's a ceiling and a floor on the production rate of every aspect of the supply chain of housing. If it doesn't matter how many houses someone owns, then it wouldn't matter if builders don't outpace the ability for particularly wealthy people to borrow and own as much as they possibly can. It's a particular type of commodity that should be appropriately controlled in a way that reduces the whole "tragedy of the commons" type effect.

      There's always a finite supply, and there's always some contingent of people who will try and get as much as they possibly can, leveraging as much generational wealth as they need to, if they need to.

      There should absolutely be a limit on the number of homes, within a particular region, someone should be able to buy, as long as a sufficient threshold is met for what can reasonably be called a scarcity problem. If an individual average home of any type would require the mean family income to quadruple in order to service the mortage, or the downpayment would require 5x their annual salary pre-tax, that seems like a very liberal threshold.

  • This would certainly drive down prices - how much is an open question. But I think its a fair compromise, UNTIL we actually do have enough homes for everyone. Until then something has to give - right now its people who can't own a single home that are yielding, but IMO it would be much more fair to ask people who already own a home to yield (not buy more than one). Ultimately that's the tradeoff to discuss.

  • Why would this help affordability? If you restrict who can operate rentals, that will inevitably shrink the supply of rentals, which will raise rents.

    • This will release homes on the market, which will lower the prices, causing the rents to drop.

    • >that will inevitably shrink the supply of rentals

      As someone that's renting because buying is impossible i think this would be fantastic. They should do it with Airbnb too.

      Not American or in the US, this is problem everywhere now. People thinking they're entrepreneurs for gouging.

      People will come up with all kinds of reasoning, its the property tax, it's migrants, its minimum wage, it's millennials, it's inflation ,when ultimately it's just that landlords will charge whatever they think they can get away.

      and sometimes they'll try to charge in other ways...

      https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/housing-planning/2025/02/...

  • The purpose of people putting money into stocks or real estate is to allow for a simple, fairly 'hands-off' way to make money (real estate is not totally hands off, but is pretty close to a set-it-and-forget-it business).

    Real estate works for this because you can really put in as much as you want into it.

    Other business activities do not work because the entrance cost for non-rent-seeking business is extremely high and the risk is way too high compared to real estate. This is due to American regulation and labor laws.

    This is a 'first-world problem', but now that I have capital, the question is 'what to do with it'?. Yeah, you could throw it in the stock market, but that's also rent-seeking in a sense because you're not really able to invest in primary rounds (I mean you can, but it's hard to find deals), so basically you're just providing liquidity to people, which is rent-seeking of a different kind.

    So then the question becomes what else to do with it? I've given a ton away, but that's useless for the most part since it barely creates any economic value.

    In my ideal world, I'd start a factory and hire a manager, but the capital cost of that is high, not because of the material or the rental cost, but because of the labor cost. So then, what's the option? I could easily outsource it all to China or India, but that's completely useless for the United States.

    Then the question becomes, why start your own, when you could invest in others. Great! I would love to do that. It would be even better if I could simply invest in a local enterprise... Except, that's not easy either. Regulation over investments means that even investing in this is fraught with difficulty unless you want to establish some sort of 'fund'.

    So basically, there's nothing to do with the money, which is sad, since I end up giving most of the money I make away anyway, and would prefer to have more of it to give away.

    Until America figures out what it wants to be, it's going to be real estate for me... consistent incomes, fairly uncorrelated with equities (which I have a lot of too), etc. There's really not many other options here. There's barely any 'productive' activities taking place in the United States.

  • > there even should be a cap on how many homes an individual can own for rentals

    Many people wish to rent, not buy. If we make it so each landlord can own fewer homes, but renting demand stays similar we just incentivise more people becoming landlords

  • That's a surefire way to make sure that all rental properties are controlled by people who are able to de facto own a lot of properties with family members (or "family" members) on the paperwork, and who are able to enforce their ownership with extrajudicial means.

    • Ironically, supply would probably increase for no other reason than those are the kind of people who just add cash only units without giving a crap about expensive permission and permits.

  • > Controversial, but for affordability reasons, there even should be a cap on how many homes an individual can own for rentals

    Price controls and limits like this rarely work out in history.

    Around here, many landlords renovate or build new high density construction. Put a cap on how many properties they can own and they'll switch from building/renting as many units as possible to maximizing the rent on the limited number of properties they can own.

    Restricting the market in one dimension rarely has the desire effect.

  • Corporations are people and states aren't legally entitled to know the composition of a foreign corporation's membership.

  • I'm in favor of a property tax multiplier that increases with the number of properties owned.

  • That would not be useful. A far better solution would be to drive up rates to make/force landlords unload properties they could only afford at lower rates and also deport the roughly 30 million foreign nationals that are currently in the USA driving up costs of everything. It’s basic supply and demand, but ironically the immigrant supporters are allied with the billionaires and generally wealthy who profit from piling in ever more people into the same supply of housing and amenities and resources.

    • > also deport the roughly 30 million foreign nationals that are currently in the USA driving up costs of everything.

      Nothing like middle school economics to help a debate along ... have you checked on the level of economic activity that is due to those 30M foreign nationals, and considered if there might be any downsides to them no longer being here (and presumably not being replaced by other foreign nationals) ?

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  • This is treating a problem symptom, not a root cause.

    Landlords owning property is not a problem. Some people prefer to rent - they may be students, or they may not anticipate being somewhere for long, they might not want the risk of owning a home, lots of valid reasons. Having housing available for these people is good and landlords are a necessary and valid part of this market.

    The problem is when people who want to own houses can't afford them, even when they contribute meaningfully to society. The root cause of this is not landlords existing. It is wealth inequality. A vanishingly tiny number of people own almost all the wealth in the system, to a point that the additional wealth gives them no real benefit, but serves only to remove that wealth from the vast majority of otherwise middle class people.

    If you want to fix this problem return the top tax tiers to what they were 50, 75, 100 years ago and the problem will be severely reduced. It's not sufficient to solve it, but its low hanging fruit.

    • > A vanishingly tiny number of people own almost all the wealth in the system

      I'm not sure this is true. Based on a couple articles I found, this is what the current situation looks like in USA:

      a) Billionaires, (of whom there are about 1,000) own about 5% of the wealth

      b) Millionaires, (of whom there are about 25 million, or 7% of the population, excluding billionaires) own about 74% of the wealth

      This tracks with my impression of the rental market. Most rent money isn't going to the billionaires or big corporations, it's going to the 10 million or so mom-and-pop rental property owners.

      I'm not an expert on this stuff by any means, but my intuition is that it's a cycle, wherein the rental system is one of the largest drivers of wealth inequality in the country.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite... https://inequality.org/article/billionaire-wealth-concentrat...

    • Landlords owning property is not a problem.

      Correct.

      It is wealth inequality. A vanishingly tiny number of people own almost all the wealth in the system

      To the extent that this is true, it's not why housing is unaffordable. Even if Larry Ellison buys a dozen mansions and keeps them empty most of the time, that's not going to noticeably affect the market for normal people. Houses are expensive because they're scarce; you're far more likely to be outbid by the guy who makes $10k more than you than by an evil billionaire.

      1 reply →

I propose two changes to (try) and broadly solve this: - Additional property tax if you do not live in your home fulltime. This includes vacation homes. - First time, US Citizen, non-corporate homebuyers can get a loan at the federal interest rate.

If I were to try and buy the condo I rent, due to interest rates, taxes, and HOA's I would be paying $1000 more per month. At the end of my mortgage I would given the entire cost of the property to a bank in the form of interest payments.

Rich investors and companies effectively get to buy homes at a discount vs average joes.

  • > Additional property tax if you do not live in your home fulltime.

    In states I've lived in with property tax there is a homestead exemption for the house you live in. In my current state that's about twice the tax.

    The effect: Rent goes up to cover the tax and margin is added, so the rent goes up more than the tax.

    >Rich investors and companies effectively get to buy homes at a discount vs average joes.

    Usually the difference is that the big investor bought the property at lower price, and your rent is based on the lower valuation. Annual rent increases are usually are much lower than market increases - there's a lot of value in keeping a tenant year over year.

    • > The effect: Rent goes up to cover the tax and margin is added, so the rent goes up more than the tax.

      Well-established effect and it applies to everything. A huge portion of all technological improvement/productivity gains and nearly all public investment money ultimately accrues to land rents which we then later just call "the cost of living."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem

      2 replies →

  • > Rich investors and companies effectively get to buy homes at a discount vs average joes.

    Suppose you had $100,000 in cash, and buy a house for $100,000. You'll not be paying 5% interest on a mortgage. But if you did not buy the house, you would be investing that $100,000 for a 5% return.

    So, you're either paying 5% on the mortgage, or foregoing 5% return for investing that money.

    The rich person is not getting a discount.

    • Couple things to add. First, rates are much lower when you’re leveraging 10,000 homes at 3:1. That allows you to purchase 20,000 additional homes, which isn’t something the normal individual can do. Second, most of this borrowing was done during the 0% interest days and when rates went up after Covid, a lot of the operations grinded to a halt. Third, there’s no regulatory environment for rent rates and rate increases.

      4 replies →

    • This is a good point, and I was curious to see exact numbers on the invest vs be a landlord opportunity cost.

      The rich person gets to rent the house, while the "newly weds" are living in it. And most importantly - the house itself will appreciate in value at a rate near 5%

      Assuming they both buy a $500k house w/ a 20% down payment and a 5% loan. Realistically the young couple would get a worse rate but lets say they both get 5%. Monthly payment is $2,522.29 w/ taxes and insurance lets call it $3000 a month.

      The newly weds are just eating that entire cost every month for 30 years, whereas the Rich landlord rents it out. After a quick and dirty Zillow search lets assume $3500 a month rent to start, so he's making $500 a month profit on an asset thats already increasing in value 5% ish per year.

      So, with these assumptions: - Home cost increases 2% a year - Rental price increases 3% a year - Home value increases 5% a year

      Total rental profit is $537k Final home value is $1.56 M Total Loan cost: $873k

      Bringing the landlords return on 100k to be $1.224M in profit over 30 years (Final sell price - total loan cost + rental profit assuming they stuff it under a mattress). Whereas $100k at a 5% yearly return will be ~$430k

      disclaimer: Im not the best with Excel and ive never actually bought property so im sure there are flaws in my math.

      2 replies →

    • An intelligent investor wouldn't buy it outright, they'd get a mortgage with a lower than average interest rate. The appreciation of the home will cover the interest rate over the long run and the interest rate is a small price to pay for keeping most of that $100,000 liquid for other investments.

      1 reply →

    • Except they do, as the original comment already said. The rich “person” has cash and access to much cheaper credit, is buying multiple properties, not paying the bills and earning rent, the other will have a mortgage.

      3 replies →

  • It depends on the state, but that is largely kind of already the case. At least in my state you get a significant deduction to your property taxes if it is your primary residence.

  • That sounds nice, but I think that increased tax will just be passed down as higher rent.

    • Higher rent means more people will opt to buy. That's not necessarily a bad thing in perspective. Assuming the other side effect is a decrease in costs due to a lower profit margin.

      6 replies →

    • That is a good point, and this tax would need to be well thought out. I specifically would increase the tax rate the more properties an entity owns (Not a lawyer so IDK how to treat one guy owning 10 companies as 1 entity the right way). That way smaller local landlord's can still exist (and keep rental prices competitive), but massive orgs will be forced to sell properties. The idea is to create a disincentive for hoarding properties in supply constraint markets.

      4 replies →

    • Long term these non-occupants will sell as other properties are being purchased by x-renters.

  • With today requirements for accounting, somebody with economics background could tell what would be wrong with following solution?:

    If you house owned by commercial entity - taxes are payed from full value, but the valuation to any collateral/derivative goes by something like (0.75x)^l, where l how many levels deep (counting ownership levels). For example it house is in some sort collateral/derivate/indirect ownership mix with 4 levels deep, it can only valuated as 0.31x value (you can only account as it is worth 1/3). In my mind it should reduce attractiveness for speculative buying.

  • Additional property tax? Do you have any idea what property taxes are like in places like NJ, NY? It's 2-3% of the value, sometimes assessed at sales value. People buy despite this because they like an area or a school system. If you raise it more, rest assured that only the rich will have the right to buy. It's as regressive as it gets, your proposal.

    • I mentioned this in another comment but - this thread is interesting as it shows the differences in housing policies / issues in different parts of the country. I'm from the Midwest / Chicago where we have a lot more land to work with so the policies are slightly different.

      That being said, it sounds like a land value tax might be a better approach to my first suggestion. Regardless, this would not effect people that truly "own and live in their only house"

  • But you'd have an asset you own at the end of that period, and your mortgage payments wouldn't go up over time whereas rent likely would.

  • Key adjustment to your first proposal: the additional property tax should also be waived when having long-term renters/occupants.

  • Property taxes are directly and immediately translate into higher rent.

    Making rent more expensive doesn't make ownership cheaper, just makes it more attractive relative to renting.

  • > If I were to try and buy the condo I rent, due to interest rates, taxes, and HOA's I would be paying $1000 more per mo

    ... and you would be building equity.

    So you pay less and get less, right?

    You're thinking this is a sign that you are being cheated. It seems to me that it's a sign you're getting a better deal by renting so that's beneficial to you.

    You lumped a bunch of factors together (interest rates, HOA, taxes) that don't do much for your argument. You would pay less taxes than the landlord in most jurisdictions, because the unit would be owner-occupied. Do you think the landlord isn't paying HOA assessments? Sure they are. The landlord has a loan at 3% because they bought in 2021. You're offered 6.5% because you're buying in 2026. I'm not convinced it's worth my pity.

  • Opportunity cost means makes purchasing with a mortgage wiser than buying cash. $1000/month more for a few years is nothing compared to the property value increase of a $1M property

    • Where I live, condo's do not increase in value much due to HOA fees and taxes.

      I just plugged in some numbers using (estimated) purchase price, taxes, HOA for the unit I'm in now, and it would cost me a little over $1M over 30 years to own a $300,000 1br apt.

      1 reply →

    • The stock market goes up more than the housing market. When considering the return on investment for a house, remember the property taxes, insurance costs, maintenance costs, repair costs, 6% real estate commissions, and so on.

      1 reply →

  • 1) Is already how things work. Every single municipality I've ever seen in the US offers an owner-occupancy tax abatement.

    2) Would just inflate home prices.

    • > 2) Would just inflate home prices.

      That depends on demand. If no one wants to buy homes at the prices offered, prices will drop.

Depends where you are

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/henry-county/3-companies-ow...

|“I’d say at least 60 percent of the homes around here are owned by corporations,” Clark said.

  • "Corporations" is meaningless in this context. If you want to own a rental home in the US, you should set up an LLC, both for liability reasons and because it makes it easier to deal with taxes and expenses.

    In the parts of the country I lived in, I've never seen big corporations own single-family rentals en masse. They usually go for apartment complexes, which are far more profitable if you have the capital to buy / build one. Commercial real estate too.

    If you click around your neighborhood, a lot of single-family homes are owned by living trusts and "Bob & Kate" LLCs, but that doesn't mean there's any hedge fund money involved.

    • Just to reinforce this, the last place I lived in was owned by a corporation...of one man, who lived a town away in a modest house and worked as a paper pusher by day.

      1 reply →

    • > e never seen big corporations own single-family rentals en masse.

      I just sold a house to a big corporation that owns about 12,000 homes. There's a whole industry for enabling these buys, opendoor, offerpad, etc... It's usually a wash selling your home as is to a wholesale deal vs. prepping your home and selling it, the difference being done about 60-90 days faster than via retail.

      The company I sold to already owned four houses on my street. It's crazy.

      3 replies →

    • That's not really meaningless though. You just explained in more detail some attributes of corporations, many of which are precisely the things many people are criticizing when they criticize the fact that corporations own lots of housing. Of course we all know that there are still humans behind the corporations.

    • This suggests that a single-family home is generally a bad investment. Maybe not if you're living in the house yourself (no renter-landlord inefficiency), but still idk. Could make more sense in certain areas where all the value is in the land.

      1 reply →

    • LLC may be a type of corporation but when people complain about corporations buying up homes they really mean C-corps, not LLCs owned by Uncle Bob who likes to flip houses.

      1 reply →

  • "Clark" is an arbitrary commenter.

    The actual data provided was:

    > For example, corporate landlords own more than 12,000 homes in Paulding and Henry County, accounting for 11.2% and 9.9% of all single-family homes in the counties.

> Black rock isn't buying up all the housing, your neighbors are.

I'm pretty naive to the issue, but awhile back I took a look at property records for my neighborhood. In fact, equity firms, including BlackRock, were buying up a bunch of houses in my neighborhood.

A tiny datapoint, I know.

Edit: It might've been Blackstone. It's been about a year since I looked it up.

Edit 2: Looking up records now, it looks like most of these equity firm purchases are back to actual people owners! Interesting. What does this mean? Firm bought property and resold at a profit?

  • > Looking up records now, it looks like most of these equity firm purchases are back to actual people owners! Interesting. What does this mean? Firm bought property and resold at a profit?

    I never went far enough to get all the details back when I was considering a move, but my impression is a lot of these "buy your home and close fast" corporate purchasers were offering just enough to make the speed and ability to not have to make a lot of major improvements worth the lost money from selling on the market. Then they do just enough work to clean up any "show stopper" problems and re-sell at market prices.

    So (very simplified) if you have a home that might sell for 200k on the market if you put 10k of work into it, but you need to move in a few months, and you need to pay off 100k on the loan, the company offers you something like 180k. You walk away with 80k (instead of 90k) in your pocket and avoid the various real estate agent fees and the need to do any of the fix up work or deal with trying to sell and move at the same time. The company puts the $10k of work into it and sells for the 200k, pocketing the $10k you gave up.

Where I live, in the fastest growing big city in the US, it is absolutely commercial investment firms buying up all the homes. I used to get calls several times a week from these guys want to buy my house in cash. I stopped taking their calls and now it has slowed to only a few calls per month.

The last call I took, last year, they were ready to buy my house in cash at market value without looking at the property.

The majority of the houses in my neighborhood are rentals, and there are thousands of houses in my neighborhood under the same HOA.

> But most of the "investors" buying up property are individuals purchasing investment properties.

Maybe they should clamp down on that as well, especially individuals who are only purchasing SFH in residential neighborhoods as a way to park their overseas cash.

  • Exactly. Nobody wants to hear this, because we're all Temporarily Embarrassed Landlords, but if a corporation buying 100 houses to sit on and extract rent is bad (or good), then 100 individuals each buying 1 house to sit on and extract rent must be equally bad (or good).

    • The complaint, real or imagined, is that young individuals aren’t building up capital. Home ownership was the bedrock of middle class assets.

    • Guaranteed those 100 individuals won't all raise their rent 10% (or whatever) on the same day, every n months.

    • I disagree with this logic. To take it to an extreme, if one person earning a million dollars per minute has moral value X, then a million people earning one dollar per minute has moral value X. I disagree on principle.

    • Just allow people and corporations to own any homes they build. That way we can all still hope to be landlords with a hundred homes.

      So long as landlords grow their business by increasing the total stock of housing, no harm is done.

  • Once you try to clamp down on investment properties, you have couples getting divorces so they can own two homes (this happened in China), and all your kids are going to have their own home as well.

    It isn't a bad idea, people will game whatever. A singapore public housing system might work better, but I doubt it would work for SFHs.

    • This comment always comes up when regulation is proposed: "But people will just game it!" The solution is not to throw our hands up and say "Well, we just can't regulate this!" The solution is to prevent the gaming, too. Laws should iterate as often as people find clever ways to work around their spirit.

      2 replies →

I can only provide anecdotal information. In my HOA community we had to make a rule that you need to live in your home for two years before you can rent it. This effectively stopped the companies like Innovation Homes from buying up properties in our neighborhood. Post housing crisis-2015 it was getting pretty bad with the investors purchasing the single family homes. I don’t know if places like Innovation Homes qualifies as “Wall Street” or not.

> Black rock isn't buying up all the housing, your neighbors are.

This is a common trope.

"It's not big conglomerates that buy and hodl the homes where families are supposed to live, its mom and pop investors so please be nice."

Having a home is not something to speculate with or leave it to the supposed "market forces".

Housing projects and regulation is what this country needs, yesterday.

A better example than Blackrock is Arrived:

"The Arrived team is cracked, and I love the audacity of their vision: a stock market for real estate," said Ali Partovi, CEO of Neo, in a release. "I'm betting on them to democratize and digitize access to America's $50 trillion in residential real estate." [0]

Should housing be a “$50 trillion” market for fractional ownership, bundled with its own secondary/speculative market to turn around and flip like penny stocks?

Lovely knowing I can have “access” to that platform and own a 0.004% share in a house someone somewhere out there lives in (rents). While I’ll probably never own a house again.

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2025/11/13/arrived-launches-trading...

The real contention is two fold: investors are collectively pricing out non-investors that would presumably actually live in the home they purchased, and among investors, institutional investors are both positioned to ignore market pressures and constitute too large a portion of the market, restricting even rental availability and affordability of the homes.

The reason institutional investors are blamed is that they usually have significant holdings elsewhere, and demonstrably will just wait out a market, taking loses they write off against their other businesses in the meantime, rather than actually participating in it. That ability to wait out the market on a finite resource rather than participating is usually otherwise only seen during antitrust market activities. The fact that many cities are considering adding significant vacancy taxes on properties, citing specifically this behavior as a driving factor, is pretty damning.

Additionally, it's not necessary for these institutional investors that are ignoring the market pressures to own a majority, or even that large of a share. Any portion they own and ignore the market for is effectively just removed from the market entirely and reduces the remaining pool of what's available. And the second-order effect is an overall damping of market responsiveness since they are simply refusing to respond to the demand half of supply and demand. I don't have the models to run the math myself, but it should theoretically be possible to calculate how much their involvement without participation impacts the prices as a relation to market share, and I'll bet it's a nonlinear result with a steep curve at even low volumes.

> But most of the "investors" buying up property are individuals...

I think the relevant quantity we'd want to look at is what constitutes most of the property being bought-up by investors. Counting investors is going to bias the count towards multitudes of little-guys.

And part of the problem may be people like my cousin, who bought a house without selling the old one, choosing to rent it instead.

While that’s true, even if “Wall Street” is only holding a few percent of homes, those being released to the markets (and future ones not being purchased) might help.

Corporate entity creation in America is such that I don’t think this will be enforceable (“we don’t buy homes, our Gibraltar office’s subsidiary invested in its CEO’s LLC that bought the home”) but if I’m wrong, it could help somewhat.

It’s binary thinking to assume that just because it isn’t a one step solution it won’t make a meaningful impact. But still, I think it won’t yet hope I’m wrong.

  • Why do you think they aren't on the market right now? These companies buy them so that they can rent them. They are on the rental market!

  • Not really, because the problem isn't investors buying homes, its a lack of supply of new homes. Big investors don't buy homes to keep them empty, they buy them to rent them out. An exception to this might be short term rentals but that is going to be significant in only a few markets and the problem there is still fundamentally a supply problem.

I feel like this article is littered with suspicious statements

Like this one:

> In fact, institutional homebuyers (those who bought 100+ homes in a 12-month period) didn’t even reach 2.5% market share at the peak level in this data line, which goes back to the start of the century.

I don’t know how to evaluate this. I doubt this analysis rolls up subsidiaries. So what does it really mean for an entity to own 100+ units? Is that actually something we care about?

Imo only thing people need to give a shit about is whether a house is being bought to be lived in.

I thought one of the big problem with Wall Street buying housing inventory is that they were turning them into AirBnbs because that is more profitable (generally) than renting. This pressure takes a lot of units off of the market for normal people to rent or buy and makes holding on to your last house a lot more profitable as a rental. I think if we get rid of these (basically) unregulated hotel exception and forced people who who AirBnb to live in that property as a primary residence 180 days a year, then the inventory could correct.

Obviously, the other factor in home prices is zoning and people who own wanting to keep supply down so their house is guaranteed to appreciate. Affordable housing (just like homelessness) in the US is only a problem because we lack the political will to solve it.

https://econofact.org/factbrief/do-private-equity-firms-own-...

> "Large institutional investors, defined as those owning over 100 homes (which includes private equity firms), own 3 percent of the single-family rental stock nationwide according to Brookings. This share is higher in some local markets — in the 20 Metropolitan Statistical Areas where these investors are most present, they own 12.4 percent"

I personally believe that its problematic that large institutional investors own 12.4% of single family properties in the 20 main metro areas of the US.

> "Resident experience is hurting as a result," said Jeff Holzmann, COO of RREAF Holdings, a Dallas-based real estate investment firm with over $5 billion in assets. "Instead of you calling your landlord to discuss a problem, you're calling a call center that gives you the runaround."

I'm not sure I understand the difference between "Wall Street" buying up all the property and real estate investment firms like RREAF doing the same, or come to that the guy down the street buying a few properties to rent out.

A small company or single investor can buy up a large percentage of local available property and be just as bad a landlord.

People are always looking for an outside villain in this story. Over the years it's been "Chinese buyers", AirBnBs, private equity, or "the rich" generally, but the thing is that the system is working exactly as it is supposed to. Middle class homeowners demand that their homes go up in value every year and they get what they want. Homes are explicitly called investments my every mainstream organization with any stake in the game. The ones responsible are indeed your neighbors, but not just the ones with investment properties. Talk to these people and between complaints about the price of eggs going up a buck or two you'll hear them mention "property values" frequently in casual conversation and beam with pride as they show you their Zillow Zestimate. Your government is happy for the increase in tax revenue (even as they carve out exemptions for their voter base). The ever increasing prices are all going to be paid by future generations, so there is no need to worry.

If Black Rock is guilty of anything here above all else, it's taking advantage of a situation deliberately created for someone else. If government policy wasn't already going balls to the wall trying to constantly pump up property values, there'd be no investment returns to be had.

Give me the levers of federal, state, and local government and I promise you I can completely tank property values in 48 hours or less.

It really depends on the market. The institutional investors are common in the South and Southwest. I think the fact that they exist at all is a problem.

You are correct however that smaller private investors are more common. I live in a small city. Small property management companies from NYC and NJ are pretty commonly buying up 2-4 family houses. I suspect that some of these "small" players aren't small at all, but hiding in a maze of LLCs.

I know a couple of dudes from way back that have leveraged their way to a real estate empire with >2000 homes in the region.

> was already starting to cool down.

You seem to want it both ways. It was a misconception, but it apparently did happen, and apparently "cooled down?" I don't think all these things can be true.

It's highly possible they were heavily investing and were planning on continuing but people noticing and the social pushback it created caused them to change their minds about the strategy.

> Black rock isn't buying up all the housing, your neighbors are.

People may or may not be. They may or may not be my neighbors. You seem to be pushing a set of ideals rather than a set of facts.

I think it depends on the market.

Atlanta specifically when I was flipping houses in 2012-2015 had a lot of corporate investors buying up low income properties, fixing them up, then renting them out.

This is meaningless, even with "Wall Street", as you've said. Several companies raise funds, to buy these homes. Institutions the like of Blackrock and REITs invest in these funds, all the time. This isn't new at all, and has been happening for years. It's just been accelerating. Add to that startups like Arrived, and there's simply more pressure on this market then ever before, sadly.

I would be very against individual investors not being allowed to buy property for investment. I think most people can agree that corporations like blackstone/rock shouldn't be manipulating markets. It would be very bad to force blackrock to liquidate its current holdings of 230k homes. It could crater the entire industry and it runs into ex-post-facto issues. Assets need to maintain value or banks will fail.

In raw numbers of ownership, sure.

But make no mistake, during the housing boom post 2019, in a lot of 'hot' metro areas, "wall street" was buying way more homes than individuals. Especially in the south. In the area I lived in, Invitation Homes, some weird shell company of Blackstone, was buying up every piece of tract housing they could get their hands on. At one point, they were making agreements with builders building out new neighborhoods to not sell to individuals since they wanted them all.

So no, I care far less about what my neighbor is doing because he or she isn't attempting to price out an entire city.

You're right. It doesn't matter though. People love 'big fixes', the reality of systemic change is hard to present in a 2 minute sound bite or Instagram reel. This is the kind of 'fix' that gets implemented, then when things don't magically improve people will just give up.

> Black rock isn't buying up all the housing, your neighbors are

To a degree, but there's a whole tranche of investment vehicles that accredited investors use to invest in single-family homes that is not securitized at all, and not on Wall Street. The whole fix-and-flip industry feeds into this now, loaning out money to turn houses into rentals that some LLC holds.

If "Black rock isn't buying up all the housing" then how do you explain why Blackrock lost $17 billion in capital today?

https://xcancel.com/KobeissiLetter/status/200899449445747946...

It matters, you just dont want to know it matters.

  • I don't think a stock market reaction is a good way to measure their impact on the housing market. It's not that they aren't involved in the market, it's that their impact is questionable given the relative size of their participation.

  • The tweet says blackstone. Thats a separate firm from blackrock. And the tweets misleading in the first place, it's looking at the bottom of a candle which wasn't even the current price at the time of the photograph? And the stock closed at about 154.

    Besides all this says is that it matters for blackstone...not for the housing market at large.

    • Ohhhh, sorry for my typo...

      > Besides all this says is that it matters for blackstone...not for the housing market at large.

      It means that blackstone cares about this, which means they like buying houses, which means it matters.

      And the stock dropped 6% today. That is what matters.

  • A hit in the stock price doesn't prove or disprove their claims. What would disprove their claims is the number of properties Blackrock is buying and if it is affecting pricing at the margin.

    • Let's say Blackrock, with all their wealth behind them, buys a home in your neighborhood. What do you think they will charge for rent? Market average? Ha! No way. They jack up the rental prices because they can. That makes rental prices rise everywhere in the area.

      1 reply →

Perfect for a big splashy press release. Populist policy with no practical benefit to the average American.

  • I worked with these firms for several years when the business concept was in its earlier stages. The money coming in to buy these homes quickly went from family offices (2013-2019) to state pension funds (2019-present) to sovereign funds (2020-present).

    Things like the largest pension fund in Sweden is invested in buying SFR. Or the sovereign fund of the UAE.

    I’m not sure if that changed your opinion on this not having practical benefit for the average American.

    • More demand for homes makes homes more valuable and encourages more supply!

      Why is this a problem? Build more homes, get rich from the Swedes!

Also, the headline on HN is downright wrong.

"US will ban Wall Street investors" != "Trump says he will ban Wall Street investments..."

This a Truth Social post from the President. It doesn't mean it has happened, will happen or will happen in the form that either Trump says it will or is being implied here.

This is a very difficult issue to properly address for lots of legal/logistical reasons. For example - many legitimate homeowners have their homes registered as LLCs and most home legislation is governed by states.

  • After a decade of national politics, and many decades of his "business", too many people still take "Trump says" as anything more than a piece of a con.

If so, then we can at least put that myth to rest and move closer to a real solution. The only potential downside I see here is that maybe it pushes the real solution a bit further down the road.

Unless your neighbor happens to be named Mr. Black Rock, private equity and wall street investors are indeed the #1 buyers of residential housing stock right now.

I agree, but besides the fact that people overlook that the “C” in LLC is “Corporate” and most private rental investors will have put their real estate in an LLC; is that the real problem at the core is cheap, i.e., devalued money and low lending standards, that has made inefficient and reckless lending and investing possible, essentially the inverse of the BNPL ticking time bomb and the cousin of the housing bubble, i.e., fraud.

With house prices being driven up by reckless lending through a debased currency, you enter a feedback loop where every inflating currencies drive prices higher, which only fuels a further frenzy of lending (including through FOMO) to driver prices higher once again.

This doesn't match what's been going on in my area. A local newspaper reported about a year ago that Black Rock owns 40% of the rental units.

Are my neighbors the ones sending me unsolicited text messages and letters about how they'd like to buy my property?

Moreover, the fundamental problem is lack of supply.

Building has not kept pace with growth in households.

It has definitely cooled dramatically; even reasonable interest rates make the numbers pretty meh.

This feels very similar to the Canadian narrative that foreign (read: Chinese) investors are buying all the houses in Vancouver & Toronto. Does it happen? absolutely, but it's also a nice way to blame a segment that has no voice or recourse. It also allows us to turn a blind eye to the impact of a generation of essentially zero % interest rates and a country that holds twice as much of their wealth in houses as the US. Other popular targets: out-of-province home owners, vacation property owners, multi-generational properties.

There is no key word here. It's an aspirational assertion on social media. Everyone asking about how it will be implemented is asking questions Trump has spent zero seconds considering. He will maybe sign some EO that will have very limited scope but mostly he is asking Congress to figure it out. Given the makeup of the Senate it will require bipartisan support which means at least months of haggling if they even consider his request. So we really have no idea what the policy will be or when we'll see it.

Its true that its a small number, but when you look at the statistics as a function of "percentage of homes purchased in 2024" instead of "total percentage ownership of homes", it is a bit more substantial: My understanding is the number is closer to 2% for Institutional investors, and as high as 4% for major markets like Phoenix and Dallas.

What it will come down to is the exact wording of what Trump means by "large institutional investors" (his exact words on Truth).

(forgive me if I don my aluminum chapeau going forward)

> Black rock isn't buying up all the housing, your neighbors are.

So in '08 we saw the veil drop on the mortgage folks. For a brief moment the sort of advantage they were taking of individual homeowners (I'm including landlords here) was plain for all to see, because the systems they had built to extract that value had been pushed too far and started to break.

The really clever/evil/nasty thing that happened next was that they all said "we're sowwy" and pretended to close up shop on the Mortgage Backed Securities markets, while sowing the seeds for a resurgence in mortgage lending by having Fannie run REO-to-Rental programs that sold foreclosed homes in bulk to investors. It would have been too obvious in the numbers if large institutional investors had bought those directly, so they let mom and pop go into business as landlords, effectively buying obfuscation of the stream of finances for the cost of whatever margins they had to take a hit on to allow for low interest rates to pump housing prices up to a place where, like in 07, they could go back to fucking around with mortages.

In less word salady terms, the plan looked like so:

- "oh fuck we pushed it too far and here come the torches and pitchforks"

- Stop making money on mortgages, but we're investment banks as well as mortgage lenders, so we can make up for the loss of mortgage money by buying a more significant fraction of the housing market at near-zero interest rates

- Wait for low interest rates to pump housing prices over time

- Okay cool, people have forgotten about the whole 08 thing and we've peeled back all the subsequent regulation so we can go back to making our money bundling risky ass mortgage securities again <--- we are here>

The essence of the problem as I see it is that finance has gotten so byzantine and complicated that the only people who understand it in real time are the people who are actively trying to manipulate it to maximize their profits, and by the time it becomes clear what dirty tricks they're pulling they've moved on to the next grift so it looks like they're innocent.

The (now somehow) political position that blackrock is not the reason a house in Seattle is $1,000,000 is somehow the most hated position in America. Both my left wing friends and right wing family believe blackrock owns something like 30% of houses in America, and saying otherwise is heresy.

This is absolutely, violently, incorrect.

Private equity has absolutely been buying up (and building) U.S. residential stock, and this is addressing a real problem. The fact that Trump's doing it doesn't change my opinion at all, but it's absolutely the right thing to do and hopefully will be bipartisan.

  • Private equity has absolutely been buying up (and building) U.S. residential stock, and this is addressing a real problem.

    Building more housing is the opposite of a problem.

    • It's not the opposite of a problem, it's orthogonal.

      In this particular instance, what's happening is that it's crowding out and destroying diversity in the home builder market.

      The model is built to rent out, and it's taking capacity out of the build-to-sell market. It's putting regional and smaller homebuilders that have traditionally provided most of the housing out of business because of their greater access to national capital.

      We are seeing this everywhere in the economy. If you have access to Wall Street capital, you can put basically everybody outside of business and then set the price. That's exactly what's happening.

Correct. More specifically, your upper middle class neighbors whose incomes have grown far more than middle earners over the past few decades: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/03/cb...

The people responsible for the cost crunch middle class people feel isn’t billionaires. Bezos isn’t using his money to buy up houses or daycare spots in your neighborhood or Disney Word tickets. It’s upper quantile white collar workers. They are competing with the middle class for the same goods and services, but make much more money relatively than they did in past decades.

Daily reminder that the largest purchasers of residential real estate through these intermediary firms (since that's all they are... they own them in trust for others) are public employee pension plans.

Black rock shouldn't buy any family homes. Not a single one.

I'm sick of the arguments that rely on the meaning of "most/many/some/not all". The arguments are irrefutable because you can always weasel your way through the meaning of the quantifier, or the false implication that only the "biggest" of something needs redress before the next in line.

A person owning a second home is fine, that's one of the paths towards financial independence: small business ownership. Someone starting out in a tiny money making operation is a good thing, and they do not need to compete with a trillion dollar empire!

Cover those individual investors too.

  • Agreed, I think the simple answer is the tax rate is one thing for a primary residence and another for non-primary residences regardless of who owns it. For example in CA, Prop 13 stays in place for your primary residence, but properties are re-assessed every year like in Texas if it's not your primary residence. In addition, take away some (or all) of the tax deductions for SFH that aren't primary residences.

    • Rent would go through the roof and it would become even harder to get out of the rental trap. It's better to just have a very low hard cap on the number of properties anyone can own.

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That sounds right. And, I have to admit, it's pretty good politics to ban a mostly imaginary thing that is a popular talking point. Since it's barely going to affect anyone, it'll be easy to pass.

And it may win votes for Republicans in swing districts, since the "BlackRock bought all the houses!" line is heard much more often from the Left, meaning this is something you can show an on-the-fence voter to signal how you are against those evil Wall Street guys.

I wonder if he'll be able to resist slipping in some kind of small-time grift for a family member or campaign donor, though.

  • He's in real estate. Of course he has an angle. Hopefully they can get something worthwhile into the eventual bill anyways.

    I would hard cap how many houses anybody can own to something like 4 - whether through an LLC or otherwise. Many countries do not or did not allow foreign ownership of residential real estate. It's definitely not in the interest of any people to have their very land taken from them. In the current climate that would likely take an extremely nasty turn so it's not the best time for it, but I would be very supportive of such a measure with an exception for permanent residents and spouses of US citizens.

From the moment I saw this in the WSJ this morning, I was wondering what people were going to come up with in order to be against this obviously-good idea, just because Trump said it.

Now I know.

  • I don’t read this as being against it at all. They’re simply pointing out it doesn’t have that big of an impact because of a bigger problem that remains.

    • Institutional investors collectively nearly a million residential properties in the US, and continue to buy more. When turnover of inventory is only a couple percent a year, owning nearly 1% of the housing stock and not turning it over is a lot. Small landlord property turnover is much higher than institutions.

      This action would have an impact.

      Other problems will ALWAYS remain. That's no reason not to make a dent in what can be dented.

  • I'm not against the idea per se, but "institutional investors are buying up homes" is an effect, not a cause. Boomers demanded that "house values are never allowed to go down, only up" and put all manner of construction-preventing policy in place to make sure this happened, so of course institutional investors showed up. If there's an asset class which is only allowed to go up, why wouldn't they?

    Banning institutional investment doesn't remove the "can only go up" laws and mindset, so I think (assuming this even happens, which it probably won't: TACO) the actual effect on prices will be minimal.

    • I don't know if you've noticed, but politicians aren't in the business of root-cause analysis or actual solutions. They are in the business of making things either slightly better or significantly worse for certain people.

      This would make the situation slightly better for people who want to buy houses.

      Perhaps it's the case I'm 100% for this mainly because my extremely low expectations for politicians have been met and exceeded in this circumstance.

      I don't know why we have to be negative about something that makes a small improvement in something that sucks.

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Yes, It should be expanded that no company can own residential property, and more importantly, each person can only own one property.

People should go find something else to invest their savings in.

  • each person can only own one property.

    You're going to need some exceptions. What happens when someone dies and leaves their house to their kids? What if someone's home is temporarily unlivable (say due to a fire or flood which requires extensive renovation) -- do they have to live on the streets?

    And that's not even addressing the obvious question of what happens to tenants if there are no landlords.

    The problem is supply, not distribution.

    • I think my suggestion would unlock a lot of supply, without expanding our cities or adding to urban sprawl.

      Keep in mind, about half of all adults are married, so each couple can own two properties. One to live in, one to rent.

      I imagine we could figure out some way to handle inheritance, perhaps we could give somebody 12 months to decide which house the want to keep, and which to sell.

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  • Would that not make rental properties entirely illegal? That seems... complicated

    • I figure many couples would live in one home, rent a second.

      The children could have one each too, perhaps only once they reach 18.

      I think there would be plenty of rental stock still.

    • Rental single-family homes should largely be illegal. Short-term housing should be largely limited to apartment buildings and more space-economic structures. Littering the landscape with empty houses only helps bank accounts.

      Still, I'm more than cognizant that there must be huge exceptions carved out for any of these ideas.

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    • the owner could rent out their own house and rent someone elses.

      it does make sense if you want to save a nice retirement home for yourself or a place where you want to raise your children while you work and live somewhere else.

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    • I think the idea is that nobody would prefer to rent if given a choice, and that everybody could afford to own if not for the presence of landlords in the market.

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