Comment by Aurornis
1 day ago
> I wonder how differently cars would be built, if instead of maximizing for value extraction and crap nobody needs, they instead were optimized for utility and maintenance (and sure, fuel economy, aerodynamics and some sane environmental stuff).
Auto manufacturers already have stripped-down base models of their entry-level vehicles. Many have commercial versions of their vehicles, especially trucks and vans, that are stripped down.
The stripped down base models don't sell well.
Remember how the internet was clamoring for an iPhone Mini? Whenever there were complaints about modern cell phones, you could find what looked like unanimous agreement that a smaller iPhone would be the golden ticket. Then Apple made an iPhone Mini, and it did not sell well.
The same happens with vehicles. Whenever you find threads complaining about modern vehicles it seems unanimous that modern vehicles have too many things consumers don't want and we'd be better off with simple base models. Yet simple base models do exist already and they don't sell well. Real consumers look at their $20,000 Nissan Versa and realize that spending an extra $1-2K on amenities isn't going to change their monthly payment much.
There is a lot of precedent for this. The Tata Nano was an Indian micro car that was small, low-power, and had bare minimum amenities. It was under $5K USD in inflation-adjusted dollars.
It was discontinued due to low demand because sales declined steadily year over year. Nobody wanted it.
I wonder how much of that is due to dealers, who want to upsell. Do they even keep the base model in stock, or does it have to be special ordered (or today, we can give you a "discount" on the fancy model that still has a higher profit margin for us).
I'm just speculating; the same reasoning wouldn't apply to the iPhone mini. But car dealers have a lot of incentive to skew the results. It takes a fair bit of willpower to say "I am buying this specific car I want and will go elsewhere if I can't have it."
Just as an anecdote - When I was buying my last car I went in and asked for just the base model with nothing added onto it, ie not even the "eXtra Special" designations, and the dealership said they probably won't have any for a long time and if I'd like to pay 50% more for one with some features added on.
I declined and kept looking at the inventory of the 4-5 dealerships nearest to me. For six months they never had a single base model.
I started looking at another maker and they seemed to have base models that just wouldn't sell, stuck on lots for that same time period.
> and the dealership said they probably won't have any for a long time
In my case, I told the dealerships I was okay with waiting up to two years to get the exact trim I wanted. I told them whichever dealership could get me an allocation first got the sale. Then I literally stood up to leave.
And like magic, they went to the computer and found the exact trim I wanted and got my allocation a month out. I was extremely picky on color and options, though. If I had been flexible on color it would have been sooner.
The sales people at dealerships will pressure you into upsells. They’re not going to turn down an easy sale if you demonstrate that you know what you’re doing. They were trying to upsell you.
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Anecdotally: I helped someone look for a cheap car recently and the base models are everywhere on my local lots. YMMV and I'm sure someone will respond that their area doesn't have any, but in my recent experience it wasn't hard to find a base model at all.
It's driven by consumer demand: If you can pay $30/month on your 5-year loan and get heated seats and a nicer navigation system, that's $1/day for 5 years and then you own it. It's easy to talk yourself into stepping up to something nicer that you're going to use every day.
I suspect you are right that this is linked to how much time people spend in their cars.
I am quite happy with a cheap car because I do not use it everyday, and even when I do the majority of my journeys are short ones (15 to 20 min).
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Agreed - check out for example a Toyota rav4 le. This is the base model with effectively zero modern “subscription-esque” fancy features. It’s got a touchscreen and power windows, but otherwise it’s all the reliability/etc of Toyota and that’s it. About half the price of what most rav4s are listed at and $20k+ cheaper than a 4Runner.
It has a Data Communication Module - it spies on you. If you try to remove that, you lose audio in the front right speaker.
Oh no, across the line Toyota still tries to sell you a subscription service that's required for things like remote start.
So? Why would people buying the cheapest possible model care?
Remote start is a luxury feature. Just ignore the subscription offer like a luxury trim option.
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In the United States (USD, MSRP):
* 2026 Toyota RAV4 LE (base trim) - $31,900
* 2026 Toyota RAV4 Limited (top trim) - $43,300
* 2026 Toyota 4Runner SR5 (base trim) - $41,570
And yet I personally know more people who own iPhone minis (myself included) now in 2026 than that own pixel phones of any model. I think the data is distorted by the fact that most people who want things like that also don’t typically buy new (especially with cars). I did buy my iPhone 13 mini from Apple directly, but I bought it after the 14 line had already been released.
HN commenters and their friends are an extremely biased sample set.
The sales numbers don’t lie about the global demand though.
I loved the iPhone 4 format factor, but prefer more recent and larger editions for battery life and battery longevity.
My only gripe with the 6.7 inch form factor would be solved if someone would just sell me a bigger hand. I can’t hold it one handed and reach the far corner of the screen without some obnoxious accessory like a Popsocket bolted to the back thereby making it impossible to use on a flat surface or fit in a pocket.
Come to think of it, Zaphod might have been on to something with that third arm.
I am aware. My point was basically that the people who wanted them weren’t lying, they really love them, and are willing to keep them for years even though they are getting slightly old now. I’m imagining this doesn’t show up in first year sales numbers in a similar way to how the things people say they want in cars typically drive used market buying not new market purchases.
I’ve tried to validate this hypothesis, but run into problems finding the data. Do you know where to find currently active numbers by model? I’m think something like browser market share charts. I’ve only been able to find numbers from the year they were released, and even that was as a percentage of total sales, not raw numbers.
My hypothesis is that minis (13 mini and 12 mini) are over represented in active phones compared to other models of that generation.
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Econo shitboxes also have very stiff competition from used low-end cars. The economics of them are often rather dubious.