Comment by toddmorey
1 day ago
Commercial OSes (both Windows and MacOS) now feel so insanely agenda driven, and the agenda no longer feels like anything close to making the user happy and productive. For Mac, it feels like Apple wants to leverage what came out of VisionOS and unify the look and feel of mobile and desktop--two things no one asked for. For Windows, it feels like ads for their partners and ensuring they don't fumble the ai/agent transition the way they did with mobile.
Linux is SUCH a breath of fresh air. No one wants it to be anything other than what you want it to be. Modern desktop Linux has a much improved out of the box experience with good support for all the hardware I've thrown at it. And Claude Code makes it very fast and trivial to personalize, adapt, automate, etc.
>unify the look and feel of mobile and desktop
Lol, that's what Microsoft tried 10+ years ago and everybody gave them shit for it, especially Apple fans. Now Apple is "inventing" this again.
Ubuntu also tried this with Unity. They were hoping that Ubuntu would become more popular on tablets if they had a more tablet-friendly UI... They imposed this on desktop users even though nobody asked for it and basically nobody used Linux on a tablet. It was kind of a disaster. Ubuntu is a commercial entity though, so yeah, prone to the same kind of bad management decisions. as Microsoft and Apple. At least with Linux you have options. Personally I just want Linux to keep becoming more reliable over time, and have better support for energy-saving features on laptops. It's sad that Ubuntu still has issues waking up from sleep mode in 2025. Somehow those problems haven't been fixed in 20 years.
>They imposed this on desktop users even though nobody asked for it
I loved Unity on desktop, and I know many others too. But there was a very loud group of complainers who made them kill it. I still use it on some installations, bit it's obviously breaking more and more.
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The thing is, Unity was great as a UI even on desktop. The main issue was poor performance early on.
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I suspect that's an Nvidia problem. Never been an issue for me using AMD.
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This has little to do with Ubuntu and probably much more to do with proprietary hardware that makes it difficult to a write a bug-free driver for Linux kernel sleep mode.
What device is giving you the most trouble with sleep mode?
I also still have tons of issues waking from sleep mode on various PCs running Win10/11 so I wouldn't be so quick to label it an OS issue.
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I remember them working on a hybrid OS that would run on your phone or tablet and then you could switch it to desktop mode. Actually looks like they're still working on that
https://www.ubuntu-touch.io/
Edit:
seriously guys, can we design product pages so they actually give you a sense of how the product actually works? That page sucks.
I found a video and honestly while I love the idea it seems that the implementation is the worst of both worlds. Who thought that this pull down menu style was a reasonable idea....
https://youtu.be/BuuW5X_ukAk?t=109
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Many of the sleep issues these days are actually Microsoft's fault. They tried to impose AlwaysOn AlwaysConnected but did a terrible job of specifying it and quality controlling implementation.
I had a Dell Precision from 2020 that never woke from S3 sleep properly, because Dell didn't care about S3 because they expected AoAc (which Windows now defaults to) to actually work. Except A) people don't want laptops that act like phones, and B) it was terrible and munched so much battery it was way better to just hibernate all the time.
Switched to ThinkPad from 2020 and it has a BIOS setting for "classic sleep" and S3 sleep works perfectly.
And Fedora gets 3-4x the battery life than Windows did for general use on both, with much less heat and fan usage, right out of the box. Not to mention bullshit like Windows taking literal seconds to show a directory's contents in the file manager... I'm completely done with Windows for anything beyond gaming (but Valve is changing that rapidly), and dual-booting to a bare Windows install for corporate remote access apps or such, on everything in my house.
Keep in mind there's a whole class of touch screen laptops that did need to be serviced by Windows and Linux.
Wait, what sleep mode issues are you talking about? I've been able to wake my ubuntu machine up using my keyboard and mouse. I haven't gotten around to testing steam link wake on lan though, I'd be disappointed if that didn't work.
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I liked Unity! Especially the global menu that macOS also has. I was disappointed when Ubuntu stopped supporting it.
yep ubuntu lost me with the tablet ui and snaps.
I'm old enough to remember everyone praising Apple for not following Microsoft and making iOS it's own separate thing.
It's totally mad that they're now trying to converge their two differentiated, successful, and (mostly) well-liked OSes with the new one they just made for a $3000 headset nobody bought and even fewer people use with any regularity.
You can't seriously compare how inappropriate Windows 8 was on desktop to the latest macOS. Bad UI aside, the OS is effectively the same OS X from 2001 with some fresh skin.
Also a lot of people hate on macOS changes, I myself did not upgrade to the latest version.
Actually, I think Tohoe is much worse!
Windows 8 is fundamentally just Windows 7 with a full screen start menu. This is a dumb usability downgrade, but unless you went out of your way to install Metro apps, it wasn't such a big change. Your apps worked the same way they always had.
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I guarantee that there is enough stuff from 2001 that won't work in Tahoe.
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I'm still on Sequoia on both my Macs. I updated my iPad Pro to iOS 26, decided it was meh, and am not updating my phone. My iPhone is over 4 years old and figure the new iOS will run like crap on it and then I'll be forced to get a new phone.
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Honestly, forced to use a macbook for work and I get incredibly strong "windows 8" vibes from macos.
Apple still has pretty incredible hardware, although it's definitely priced with that in mind - but the software has been a constant slog. Change for change's sake, needless shifting in settings/config menus. Weird "we tried to make this similar to mobile" themes in some places but not others. Overly complex os navigation, without clear goals or direction.
Frankly - the OS apple is producing for their traditional computers feels like garbage. I use Arch/Gnome on my personal hardware and I feel like some time in the last 5ish years my opinion swapped - I used to think Gnome was mostly copying Apple design choices, but slightly worse. Now I think Gnome is just a more clear, more usable DE than what Apple is releasing. I moved my wife to Arch/Gnome on her personal laptop last year, and the sure sign was that she hasn't really had any problems with it.
All that said... I still keep a laptop around with Windows 11 on it, because I have a couple of legacy tools (CNCs, solar inverters) that still want it, and holy shit is modern Windows just absolute trash. I grew up on Windows, from windows 3.1 to windows 10, and it's the worst of the 3 by a good distance right now.
You know something's gone wrong with commercial tech companies when the only OS that actually feels like it's intentionally designed for users is the free product.
In what way does MacOS feels like garbage ? I use it everyday on a +5y MacBook and it’s an absolute blast. Powered on for weeks without reboot, 3x4K 32inch screens, hundred of chrome pages and apps opened and it’s all smooth. Ofc I don’t even hear a fan but the software is amazing for me. It all works, all the time.
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Effectively no one is arguing Apple is “inventing” this, and tons of people—especially the most ardent Apple fans—hate this direction. Adoption of the 26 OSs is lower than others in recent memory. Even the comment you’re replying to is critical of it.
There are a lot of legitimate reasons to criticise Apple, especially under Tim Cook. Let’s please not do this obvious rage bait where you fabricate that a group has a singular unified hypocritical opinion which is the opposite of what we’re seeing just so you can hate on them.
What even is the point? For the past twenty years, I have never seen an Apple fan being as close to annoying as the haters are. Same thing with other groups like vegans: There are more people loudly proclaiming that vegans are annoying than there are annoying vegans in the world.
Why must we keep defining ourselves by hating on others? As long as they’re not causing harm, let people be. “Why are you so angry?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExEHuNrC8yU&list=PLJA_jUddXv...
They also seem to be reinventing Windows Vista (visually).
That's fine by me. Vista was by far the best looking Windows release imo. I would be using Aero right now if I could.
Windows Aero will never die
That is because Microsoft put a touchscreen GUI on servers. Windows server had the stupid charm menu thing. It was just amazingly stupid.
Except that GNOME Mobile is actually pretty close to achieving that right now, and runs quite well on any reasonably up-to-date mobile hardware if the kernel-level support is there.
Lots of Apple fans are giving Apple shit for it now too.
The new glass look is just so bad. It feels cheap, like a child’s toy. And performance is worse as a result.
I’ve turned it off on my phone, via the accessibility settings. But it’s clear Apple doesn’t test the UI layout much with the new glass look turned off. Lots of controls are subtly misaligned now. I regret updating.
I have a Linux workstation. On Linux, nobody has the power to foist new ideas - good or bad - onto all users. All the arguing and bike shedding is one of Linux’s big weaknesses. But it’s also a huge strength. The desktop experience hasn’t gotten worse over the last 20 years like it has on windows and macOS. Programs start more or less instantly, as they should on modern hardware.
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Commercial OSes (both Windows and macOS) are also both American, and lots of people are trying to de-Americanize.
Yep, I'm in this boat. After years of macs my next will be a FreeBSD Desktop.
edit: Although phone is much harder. I guess I'll just turn all the 'stuff' like icloud off, use only signal and my banking/etc apps, and get a separate camera.. Anyone found a less painful way to live without an iPhone/Android?
GrapheneOS is not quite "without" Android but it's without what makes it bad (Google) and works fine for me. I hear LineageOS is ok too.
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As someone who had been in the Apple ecosystem since Windows XP, it was difficult to lose that constant seamless interplay between my phone and computer. But honestly? The trade-off was worth it in the end. I’m 8mo into Linux-only desktop and man…it’s great.
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Fairphone with Graphene
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However if we don't get something like SuSE desktops and laptops at Media Markt and friends, most people won't care.
In fact I know of library that rolled back to Windows kiosk mode, from a previous SuSE deployment, because it wasn't what library users were expecting.
Linux is also realistically American since the largest contributors are American corporations and the dictator for life lives on Portland oregon.
America has a monopoly on software essentially.
assumign this is arguing in good faith..
the issue is not about it being american as it is america being in control of it. you don't get access to windows or mac os source code. You can however take the linux source code, fork it and make it yours. that "dictator for life" in portland can't stop you. nor can anyone else in the us government for that matter.
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> Linux is also realistically American
I think this is objectively true. The Linux Foundation is also US based. We saw this when Russsian contributors were banned from the kernel to comply with US sanctions.
The big difference of course is that relying on Linux does not have to mean realying on US corporations. At the level of a nation-state, and certainly at the level of a larger political collective like the EU, control can always be taken back if political interests diverge or if risks mount. Linux could be forked and maintained out of Europe, Asia, or elsewhere if needed. And technology could even continue to be pulled from the US version if desired.
Above, I mean the kernel. But the "distro" level offers another level of contorl. A distro maintained outside of the US offers a lot of local control and isolation from the risks of US control. The kernel used in this distro does not have to be fully forked to be audited, to remove anything concerning, or to add in whatever is desired. And the same is true of all other software included in the distro.
While maintaining a distro is a lot of work, it can be done at the scale of an individual or a small team. It can be done with a travial number of resources at the nation state level. In some ways, it is crazy that more countries do not have their own distro even if it does start as much more than a "spin" of some maintstream distro. As political tensions mount, this may become a more normal "national security" step to take. Being ready to pivot and isolate from the US is more important than actually doing it. If all your government and military infrastructure is based on a distro you control, you can then pivot quickly if you need to. And there are customization and standardization benefits of having a regionally focussed distro beyond national security.
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The question is which nation you'll have to depend on when you want a bug fixed. With OSS, the answer is "none".
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It doesn't much matter that Americans are the largest contributors, because you can still take it and change it however you want.
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Are the BSDs as US-focused?
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Yeah. The TechBros changed things globally. I can not support their Evilness, so I also need to get people to commit to having viable alternatives, e. g. improving LibreOffice to the point where the proprietary office suites from US corporations are no longer needed.
I don't think that the proprietary office suites are needed. The alternatives are good enough for what people do, aren't they?
The problem is that people don't want to change, because it takes some effort. Why would people use WhatsApp instead of Signal otherwise?
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Mac feels like it is constantly trying to sell you on their cloud services. A few times a day it will tell me that I haven't backed up to the cloud.
Windows is strangely less direct, but will regularly automatically try to save something to onedrive and force a subscription. Plus, it is just full of ads and nonsense.
I’ve noticed on my work machine, it really really really wants me to save my new document to one drive. It was about three clicks in the save dialog to get back to a local drive.
They were sneaky about it, with a switch to “turn on autosave” only working when you save to the cloud.
I miss my Linux work machine with Libre office..
https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-office/mi...
>turn on autosave” only working when you save to the cloud
Oh wow, that's pretty evil. No technical reason, "would be a shame if something happened to your unsaved changes"...
How odd.. I have this on my iPhone, but to my recollection the mac has never not once asked me to enable any kind of cloud stuff or sell me storage.
as a dude who uses all three heavily for work & personal (windows/linux/macos) macos doesnt even come close to windows in the "trying to sell me on the cloud services" front. microsoft ddos's my brain with sign in with an o365 account at every corner of computing now. microsoft products are actually insane now.
i have quite a few mac vms for development things and ive had no issue just disabling all the icloud pieces & my usage in these environments seems to be pretty damn quiet the way i like it. windows has gone completely bonkers damn file explore has network service call stacks summoning bing wtf is going on there.
feel like i have to shower after using windows now it's crazy. reminds me of early 2000s when HP laptops were just filled with bloatware when you bought them, except microsoft has now baked this unforgettable experience into their operating system.
i will remain on macos for my personal device until other hardware manufs make great hardware. i have the pleasure (or displeasure) of using lots of different devices for work so ive got a stack of thinkpads and surfaces and a couple frameworks even and apple is still leading the charge on the bonkers hardware that fits in my backpack. im loyal to no one in the end and have no dog in this fight, but i would really enjoy if someone could catch up to apples chip developments for mobile desktop computing. id love something that is as refined and performant+efficient as my m4max pro but runs linux.
all in all i think device/manuf tribalism is the lamest part of computing and it's always been in my best interests to try them all myself and switch on a whim to whatever feels like it meets my needs. im in a unique position to use a lot of diff devices and os's with what i do and there's undoubtedly frustrations with all of them. there's always going to be a free spirit inside me that champions linux to the ends of the horizons though, but apple is undeniably in a unique position to r&d bankroll tsmc, design their own soc, develop hardware and software and marry all of those things together. it's cool shit, and they'd score a lot of goodwill if they just documented their damn stuff so linux distributions could just work on these devices rather than requiring some crazy reverse engineering effort and all the associated mailing list drama that came with asahi.
The HP ZBook G1a is similar to a Macbook in case(*), touchpad, screen and audio quality, design and performance - just the efficiency and battery life are kind of crap and, uh, I haven't figured out yet how to configure reliable sleep on Linux. It lasts 6-7 hours idle. You can also empty the battery in an hour with heavy compile jobs, but that one Macbooks do as well according to info I've found on the net.
(*) Aluminum is more about perceived than actual quality - I wouldn't mind touching something with lower heat conduction, especially in winter. The only thing that I really like about it, compared to a Thinkpad, is the stiffness of the screen part.
We are very similar, you and I, and I'm completely with you on all of this.
Ugh it annoys me so much that the desktop etc is all in one drive without me setting it that way. But then there is still a desktop/documents directory in the usual spot under your profile, just the files don’t appear if you actually look at the desktop.
It makes sense. Services is their second largest division, and it accounts for just under a quarter of their annual revenue (and growing).
Even within the range of Linux distros there are some that feel more agenda-driven than others. That's the absolute wonder of it. One can sidestep the flamewars and just use another distro that suits likeminded people.
On the other hand I think this makes it difficult to provide a perfect experience - you have to stay closer to the herd if you want trouble free computing. You have the choice.
I think it's great that there are Linux projects where the people in the project are obviously unhinged fanatical idealists sent on a mission by god to do <whatever> in the One True Way. I wouldn't use any of those projects, but it's great that they exist, and sometimes their good ideas percolate out to projects that I do use.
Like fine, they're gonna make a distro that only uses software under one of the FSF's free as in freedom copy-left open source licenses, not just excluding closed source software, but also binary blob device firmware and software distributed under one of those filthy permissive licenses. That's great. It's fucking unusable, but it's awesome that it exists and it's great that they're doing it.
Curious to hear which good ideas had their origin in a distro run by fanatical idealists. Not asking for evidence to try and disprove you. Genuinely curious!
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It's interesting to think how incredibly clunky, unintuitive, difficult, unpleasant to the eye, and just generally painful the Linux desktop experience used to be. These days Linux has proved it's usefulness on the desktop, both to novices and power users alike. I have no doubt that 2030s will be the decade of the Linux desktop. Perhaps until 2038 anyway.
On build your own PC desktop with known parts, yeah.
On random laptop regular people buy at computer stores and needs to be reversed engineered by volunteers, it will be business as usual.
Windows is a bizarre product at this point; it is what the company is famous for, but it is small beans next to Azure, right?
Nobody would get into the Operating System business to make money I think, the going rate is $0, subsidized by something (an ad company, a hardware company, or general kindness and community spirit).
No, Windows still has Windows tax, which is why I always choose "No OS" when buying a machine. MacOS/iOS/iPadOS were never for sale separately, so we can't judge the price. Android sure is subsidized though.
> MacOS/iOS/iPadOS were never for sale separately
Mac OS was though. OS X 10.0/10.1 were sold for $129 as an upgrade for Mac OS 9 users. Apple continued to offer OS X as a paid software product up to 10.5 or 10.6 (though it was also bundled with new Mac purchases).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_version_history]
Android does have a cost. While the OS itself is free, any manufacturer that wants to put Play Store, which is almost every company outside China, needs to pay Google a license fee, which effectively pays for Android. Of course there are also ads everywhere in Android and Android apps that helps pay the bill.
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Productivity and Cloud have a revenue of about 30B each while personal computing only was 13.5B (that includes windows Xbox and search + advertising) according to ms earnings report q4 25
Yep! That’s what I was thinking of. It is a cloud hosting company that keeps some legacy software around for sentimental reasons.
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If you want the "Home" version of Windows, you'll get ads and crap, but the cost will be free/low. If you don't want the ads and need a more professional setup, then you can pay for Windows "Pro" version. They also have server versions that cost a lot more, so yes, Microsoft can and does make money from their OS. No, it's probably not as much as they make from Azure now, but in the past it made them a lot of money. It's estimated Windows brings in ~$20 billion for Microsoft, which is nothing to balk at. Azure brings in ~$75 billion. $20 billion isn't "small beans" in this equation, it's substantial.
The Pro version doesn't remove the adverts.
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> Claude Code makes it very fast and trivial to personalize, adapt, automate
I used Claude to define some CS exam computers using NixOS; it was just GNOME, but with a few tweaks made via dconf. For example, add a maximize icon next to the X (close) in the menubar, make the dashbar behave like a dock with smart autohiding. On a Tailscale VPN so I can service them. And with a few programs preinstalled, preconfigured and pinned to the dock. System users for every student. And with mirroring the screen at a certain resolution by default.
Anything I hadn’t tried before, I just asked it to make. The dconf tweaking in particular was so much easier than when I tried to do this manually.
Windows and macOS are now sales funnels for the various subscriptions Microsoft and Apple offer.
I've been using macOS since 2020, but for the last year I have seriously considered switching to Linux. macOS Catalina felt really fast, easy to use, and lacked the useless features they kept adding and the ipadOS like interface they began implementing. In 2020, the feature set felt much more intentional.
> and ensuring they don't fumble the ai/agent transition
They've already fumbled it.
> the way they did with mobile.
It's the exact same way they fumbled with mobile. They were very late to the party and decided to buy their way in. It _never_ works.
MS was almost two decades early to the mobile party, and still fumbled it. Because they didn't have the usability insights around touchscreens that others pioneered.
Also could never name things—they named it Wince.
I had a wince device before the iPhone existed 2005 ish.. An o2 XDA 2s ... There was flash for the OS ... All your files were stored in ram... Internet was a 56k dialup speeds... The arm CPU was anemic.... Wince also had issues if left on too long.. I.e. phone stopped giving audio in a call ... All in all was cool, the slidenout keyboard I miss but terrible software ... The lack of durable user files made it a fail.
I am curious about how you are improving the Linux experience with claude code. Can you dive into that a little?
I feel like cli agents are the main benefit of going back to Linux. It’s such a joy to have all the solutions to customizations and fixes I want completely automated, using an agent that can control anything I permit and understands my OS completely.
I turn on my computer, the desktop shows up…and that’s it. No random windows, no popups about some bundled software I don’t use or how my subscription for X service I don’t want isn’t activated. A chime and a blank screen. Bazzite made my computer fun again.
I find it so odd that Apple put so much weight behind the VisionOS design, rolling it out to all platforms, considering so few people have Vision Pro. The justification for bringing some iOS ideas to macOS made sense, because everyone knows how to use iOS and is familiar with those conventions.
I’m curious if we’ll see another major shift with the new deign lead, or if the higher ups will want to run with Liquid Glass for a while after so much investment, and not wanting to alienate users by radically changing design direction too often. Or if Liquid Glass is here to stay as long as we have Vision Pro, because VR/AR demand that style of UI, so everything else needs to fall in line for consistency’s sake.
I think I’d be more apt to switch to Linux if it wasn’t for all the mobile integration macOS and iOS have. Giving that up is a tough sell. It also means finding new solutions for managing photos, music, notes, and a bunch of other things. I also struggle to find non-Apple hardware I find acceptable. I’ve used Linux on and off for over 20 years, and in the past few years is gotten to the point where I think I could daily drive it with little to no compromise, in a bubble. But mobile really bursts that bubble.
> I find it so odd that Apple put so much weight behind the VisionOS design, rolling it out to all platforms, considering so few people have Vision Pro.
I suspect they began working on Liquid Glass before the Vision Pro was publicly unveiled, so they didn't know what the public response would be.
What I honestly find more baffling is that they thought the Vision Pro would sell well. It just isn't a good product.
Perhaps they're still banking on a future where the Vision Pro becomes a pair of real glasses. In which case, Liquid Glass is the type of interface you'd want to have.
I thought I saw various comments to the effect that the Vision Pro is just a developer thing to bootstrap the app ecosystem, a prelude to a real consumer product. But if that is the case I’m slightly confused as to why they aren’t sharing more of their roadmap…
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> What I honestly find more baffling is that they thought the Vision Pro would sell well.
Those monopolies seem so scared to "miss the next smartphone" that they invest heavily in whatever their competitors do. Everybody was running after VR/AR headsets, now everybody is running after AI.
They see the others run somewhere, they run in that direction. Just in case.
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KDE Connect
It’s not actually really the same as the visionOS design, merely inspired by it.
You paint a very rosy picture of Linux.
It's a mess of disparate highly inconsistent systems.
The Linux user experience matches what it is - a random bunch of developers developing random software in the way they like with a very thin patina of consistency failing to hide the mess.
It's nowhere near as fabulous as you are making out - it's fanboiism to say otherwise.
As opposed to the highly cohesive and unified way Large corporations with thousands of developers work. A hive mind of likeminded individuals all working towards a single blissful objective with no distractions or competing ambitions. Not a single legacy being kept without reason, only purpose.
You are wrong. Linux desktop is incredibly fabulous in 2026, and I am reminded of it everytime I have to use Windows for work or gaming.
I agree with you. Microsoft really has gotten bad in this regard. In the past, the operating system was kind of semi-useful. Now one has to wonder what the real agenda is. For me the quitting point was the recall-sniffing on everyone; I don't care if this can be disabled. To me it means that the USA wants to monitor me non-stop. That's a no go. (I was already using Linux before, so I don't depend on Microsoft anyway, but it now meant that I also need to stop using secondary computers with a Microsoft-tainted operating system. I can not trust the USA in any regard anymore with the TechBros in charge. They killed all goodwill and reputation.)
As if Linux was/is not agenda driven. People really forgot I guess.
Obviously, you can't build something as complex as a modern operating system without intention, and therefore an "agenda" but I have a feeling you know what OP was getting at.
I also know that the impulse to be a pedant is strong because I fight it every day, ha!
By agenda-driven, I think they mean the commercial operating systems are designed with the intention of improving the uptake of other products and services by the companies that sell them.
I think you are referencing something more like a political agenda. And Linux to some extent, GNU even more so are motivated by a political agenda: user empowerment. It is just… a good agenda.
Was going to say, the online help always baits you into using OpenJDK which doesn't work for random stuff, or in older times there was those non-default "non free" repos you needed to add if you wanted wifi to work.
> No one wants it to be anything other than what you want it to be
I wish I could agree, but the recent push for Wayland only, or GNOME deciding to deprecate middle-click paste, or further reliance on systemd, comprise a non-exhaustive list of examples of things I don't want, and which may end up pushing me off the platform again on the desktop. There are definitely opinionated agendas in Linux (and open source more broadly), and the relative instability of Linux as a target makes forking and maintaining a project + dependencies often unrealistic for a single person... which is how these big projects are able to exert so much influence.
It's typical business logic. It's not enough to focus on making the product better than the user, you must have a "big" product vision and you're only allowed make changes that align with that product vision.
So when that vision is something that users are ambivalent on (3D TV, AI operating system, etc...), well tough, that's still all they're getting until it hurts the company financially or the next executive has a different "big idea". :(
Commercial OS's are terrible, but theres nothing that gets me on guard more than someone claiming theres an "agenda". The word has lost all meaning.
I’m stuck in a world of AirDrop and expecting my phone to know the Wi-Fi password on my laptop, so I’m not gonna leave MacOS but it absolutely does suck. It used to be that Spotlight file finding was broken, but as of the last today Finder file finding is broken too. This is on multiple new Macs.
If you only need to airdrop between your own devices, try out KDE Connect. It uses the network (WiFi) but I think there's also a Bluetooth mode in beta.
Windows 10 and Sequoia are the last two versions before the complete and utter enshittification of these operating systems.
Windows has evolved into the world's highest security risk. MacOS feels like Eye Candy due to its increasingly inaccessible price for people with low resources. So, price and security are the reasons why I switched to Linux.
Getting a macbook is cheaper than it has ever been. You can get a new m4 macbook air for around 750 on amazon. The prices of apple laptops have been dropping every year despite inflation in the rest of the economy....
Still lots of cash, versus a 400 euro laptop, which is what many regular people end up buying.
There is a reason so many European operators have contract offers for TV or Internet packages, where customers get Apple gear "for free", naturally with a several years bound contracts.
Before memory prices skyrocketed, you could buy a 8c/16t Ryzen laptop and max it out with 64GB of memory and 2TB+ of disk space for less than $500.
Did that with the HP Dev One a few years ago, just did it again with a replacement sans memory that I already have.
You can get a dell laptop for like $200.
Yes, prices have gone down over the years, but still unaffordable by people who can afford less.
Don't get me wrong, MacOS graphics, aesthetics, GUI, are awesome and I like its consistency but there are cons, too.
They typically have a higher upfront cost, limited upgrades, fewer ports/software options, repair challenges.
For comparisons, I purchased an Acer Helios 300, three or four years with the following specs:
The Acer Predator Helios 300 Processor: Intel® Core™ i7 Memory: 16 GB RAM Storage: 512 GB SSD Display: 15.6" Full HD (1920 x 1080) IPS ComfyView Graphics: NVIDIA® GeForce RTX 20xx.
I upgraded the machine's drives, to three, run Windows on the 500GB SSD drive, Linux on a 2TB M.2 drive and have a 4TB storage drive.
This is not something that I could do on a MacOS without a significant price upgrade. As such, I would say that MacOS is restrictive as far as hardware upgrade, and price. It's just Eye Candy for most people.
>price and security are the reasons why I switched to Linux
What measures do you take to insulate yourself from desktop Linux's really bad security?
Hah, good one
Ha, I have nothing on my machine that anyone would want. Yes, my life is that boring. So no, I keep nothing of importance in the drives, just old memories.
Out of the box, I've experienced less spyware-related issues with Linux. I have enabled UFW, installed ClamAV, closed or blocked communication with some ports. But for the most part, I've not had the same problems that had caused system and browser infections. If anything, the badly designed hardware of the machines and systems that I've built tend to cause the problems, for the most part, not to mention my own stupidity. If I do begin to experience, spy or adware-related issues, I suppose I could look into something like this: https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole
Though if things got to the point where I'd need more protection, I'd think about the following:
-Keep system and software updated. -Enable firewall (e.g., UFW). -Use strong passwords and MFA. -Install from trusted sources only. -Encrypt disks (e.g., LUKS). -Use SELinux or AppArmor. -Sandbox apps with Flatpak/Wayland. -Install antivirus like ClamAV. -Disable unnecessary services. -Monitor logs and use tools like OpenSnitch. -Switch to CubesOS (qubes-os.org) but I'm not that paranoid, yet :)
I'm just not too tech savvy, but honestly if anyone had enough knowledge, they'd probably could get into my system. That being said, though I consider Linux to be more secure than Windows, no system is 100% secure, in my view.
> Windows has evolved into the world's highest security risk.
It has always been.
That unfortunately is true, for the most part. Whether this is due to financial reasons or for lack of engineering best practices, I can't say. All I can say is that, switching to Linux has led to significantly less cost, technical or spyware issues, not counting the issues which I created out of ignorance.
Come back when I can run Linux on a laptop that has 12+ hours battery life, runs fast, that’s lightweight, quiet and doesn’t cause infertility from the heat when I put it on my lap….
Using an x86 laptop in 2025 is like using a flip phone 6 years after the iPhone came out.
Of course if you are a gamer, ignore everything I just wrote.
Given that this is your stance and demands for laptop hardware I have to assume that you have never once participated in the laptop market prior to the M1 releasing?
That’s the only way your unrealistic expectations make sense.
Of course, people have been parroting that about Linux on laptops for over a decade. I never understood it, since I’ve never had any significant issues with Linux on my laptops.
Indeed nothing other than being the only device that dropped connections on some of my routers, no hardware video decoding no matter what tips from Linux forums I tried, OpenGL 3.3 when the card supported OpenGL 4.1....
And when during 2024 I looked for a replacement after it died, I was so lucky that I got one with an UEFI that refused to load whatever distro I tried from SSD, while having no issues loading the same, if it was on external box over USB.
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Yes and I also had a flip phone before the iPhone came out and a 90 pound CRT before large CRTs got affordable.
In fact my first computer was a 1Mhz Apple //e with 128KB of RAM.
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Battery life was always better on Macs, along with a bunch of other things.
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Most of Linux's laptop woes is due to two things:
A. ACPI which is a sprawling, overengineered mess created by Microsoft, Intel, and Toshiba, and
B. ACPI-specific things like sleep and power being tested only for Windows
B is a direct result of two things: 1) crappy outsourced firmware developers, and 2) Microsoft's 1990s strategy of disallowing OEMs from offering systems with other operating systems preinstalled.
So, not really Linux's fault. If the interfaces that controlled all the laptop goodies were exposed as normal hardware (and documented) instead of gatekept behind ACPI methods that have to be written by firmware vendors that can often barely spell the menu options correct in the setup screens, then this issue would not exist.
UEFI is ACPI's successor and carries on this legacy. It's disappointing that it's seeping into the ARM world.
> If the interfaces that controlled all the laptop goodies were exposed as normal hardware (and documented) instead of gatekept behind ACPI methods that have to be written by firmware vendors that can often barely spell the menu options correct in the setup screens, then this issue would not exist.
> UEFI is ACPI's successor and carries on this legacy. It's disappointing that it's seeping into the ARM world.
Arm (and Risc-V and other arches) Linux has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devicetree instead of ACPI, which is better in that it declaratively documents the hardware in a system and how to access it. However, the hardware support which can be found in the Arm ecosystem is in no way better than that for x86 laptops. Many SoC manufacturers still don't put any effort into upstreaming drivers or device trees, many devices are still only supported by tossing a single release of a heavily patched kernel over the corporate wall and then forgetting about them.
>is like using a flip phone 6 years after the iPhone came out.
I was doing this and it was great. I only had to get a smart phone for work, and I hate the stupid thing.
You mean the framework Ive been running for the past 4 years or so?
You mean the same ones that consistently get bad reviews for being hot, with poor battery life, heavy and sub par screens?
https://community.frame.work/t/fw-16-review-the-good-the-bad...
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I've got a Framework I am not too upset with, but the battery life (especially during sleep) is definitely one of my gripes. I still have yet to try powertop or other tools to optimize, maybe I would be proven wrong.
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I think that the ThinkPad X13s Gen1 might meet these requirements. It is my favorite ARM Linux laptop I've ever used. It has great support in Debian 13 (trixie), and it feels pretty smooth and fast. It doesn't have any fans, stays cool, and I regularly get a full day's worth of battery life out of it with margin to spare (10-12 hours). It's better than the newer Snapdragon X1 Elite based ThinkPads, in my opinion, even though it isn't quite as fast because it is passively cooled, is easily fast enough that I've never noticed it feeling "slow", has good driver support in mainline Linux and Mesa (which took a few years to be fully worked out, but is there now), and it's readily available for a good price (on eBay).
It seems this laptop is not available any longer. Are there any ARM alternatives you are aware of?
Have you managed to get sleep states to work? I'd love mine but it never sleeps properly.
Ubuntu but I'd change for sleep.
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I love my expensive Macbook at work, but at home old my old Thinkpad running Linux is a godsend. The performance is perfectly adequate for all my daily non-work needs, battery lasts several hours, and since the thing has little monetary value, I can be pretty careless with it, in an environment with small kids running around and doing random things. At this rate, I think it will last me well into 2030's.
I'm not going to buy a new Macbook with my own money as long as I can't install Linux on it. I don't want perfectly fine machines to turn into e-waste, or at least become insecure once the original manufacturer decides not to offer OS updates anymore.
Pre-lenovo or post? any particular model?
I recently switched to Debian on my laptop (Zephyrus G14) because it was the only way I could get it to NOT run into the problems you described. Went from ~2 hours of battery life to 10, and no more of the constant jet engine level fan activity I experienced with windows.
Like the ThinkPad T14s or any other Snapdragon X Elite, or better? Apple chips are great in this space but they're not alone.
Xiaomi, Honor and Huawei make ARM-based notebooks like that. The closest to your description is probably the Qingyun line of laptops.
Just buy any modern Laptop? What you describe hasn't been an issue for at least ten years now.
> any modern Laptop
When I looked up Dell Pro Max 16, I found a thread complaining that its camera doesn't work: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=307529
And there are numerous other reports of how various modern laptops have various problems under linux.
So no, "any modern laptop" is not a good recommendation. It should be specific models.
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I was doing that on my Thinkpad X220 a decade ago.
Bro I don't care how long the battery life is. I use my laptop plugged in 90% of the time. The portability is so I can change what location I'm sitting at, not so I can be unplugged constantly.
It's the same for me. I understand that people do want to use them without plugging in, but I would imagine at least most developers prefer external screens, right?
For me the battery is good enough when it can last two back-to-back meetings without me getting worried, so about 2.5 hours. Otherwise it stays plugged to USB-C.
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I am a Linux fanboy. But man, when you try the battery life on the latest Macbooks... it can last for days of work without charging.
Why would anyone come back? Nobody is bothered by you having a device that you like, and nobody cares if you replace it.
People without this particular 12 hour battery life requirement (which is quite niche, most of us live near plugs) are talking about what works for them.
Battery life is the best selling point of MacBooks and the reason these are selling like crazy. I’m a full time Linux user and I’m even considering buying a macbook and running a Linux VM full time because of the battery.
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I am a Linux fanboy and I totally agree that I am almost always near a plug and don't need that kind of battery life.
But when I can go for days on my work Macbook without charging (and I am a developer, so I do compile stuff), I kinda wish I could have that on Linux, too.
And again, I don't need it. Just like I don't need a fast Internet connection, but well... :-).
Besides the 12+ hour battery life which is only achievable with ARM processors, everything described can be accomplished easily for the typical slightly above average computer user with Kubuntu today.
I installed latest Kubuntu on my old 2015 MacBook Pro and it runs ice cold now when playing YouTube videos with Firefox whereas before it ran hot even with a Mac fan control app
I believe devices based on Lunar Lake (and the upcoming panther lake) can hit 12h battery life. Something with a 268V will be the fastest low power chip you can grab that will likely support linux.
But I do wish there was a viable ARM laptop offering that supports linux.
So everything but good battery life is achievable on a portable device?
“Besides that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?”
This isn’t 2015… ARM Macs have been out for six years
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But here's the thing with Apple ARM processors. Each core in that M3 chip is faster than the corresponding core in an x86 chip. And it has unified memory, meaning that the CPU, GPU, and NPU all get access to the same RAM.
So you can get long battery life, cool thermals, and superior performance all in the same machine, at the same time. It will take the rest of the industry years to catch up to what Apple has wrought.
One good thing is choice. You are free to use macOS or even windows.
But this battery argument is bull shit
15 years ago it was so difficult to find charging points.
Not now. I have never ever been in a situation the I needed to be away from charging for > 6 hours. 6-10 hours is really possible.
If your working or life demands that then pity you. I have better life/work.
And again choice. You are free to use macOS or even windows.
My “work life” involves business travel - consulting.
My personal life involves month long stints of me working outside the home and even at home, I am sometimes working on the patio enjoying 80 degree weather in the middle of winter in Florida…
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Linux will run on most platforms, so just pick up a fast, lightweight laptop, and select a conservative power profile for longer battery life and less heat, and don't run 32-thread machine learning jobs on it.
A 12-hour laptop battery life is a little bit of a red herring: yes, you can get it on efficient ultrabooks and MacBooks, with light use like web browsing or office work, on low brightness and minimal background apps. This is true on MacOS, Windows and Linux. The first two may be better at handling low power modes on hardware peripherals, but OTOH on Linux I have a better control over background tasks.
I have an absolute trash travel laptop from last decade, running Fedora Linux, and it lasts for multiple days if I keep it mostly closed and just open it for whatever browsing/editing I need on the road.
And how many laptops running Linux are light, power efficient, fast, quiet with good battery life?
My 16 inch M3 MacBook Pro runs 5 hours at 80% brightness doing development with my USB powered (video and power from one USB cord) portable monitor. The Mac battery is powering the monitor
https://a.co/d/gHqpcs3
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