> The O-1 category includes the O-1A, which is designated for individuals with extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business or athletics and the O-1B, reserved for those with “extraordinary ability or achievement”.
Then later it says
> The O-1B visa, once reserved for Hollywood titans and superstar musicians, has evolved over the years.
I understand those two aren't necessarily contradictory, but the wording of the first sentence paints a very different mental picture than the second one (at least it did for me), especially since they throw in the O-1A and then almost exclusively talk about people applying for the O-1B after that.
Personally, I don't want the US choosing to give visas to influencers over scientists, but if this visa was already being heavily used to bring in actors, musicians, and athletes I don't see what the hubbub is about. I don't use TikTok or OnlyFans and I don't find e-sports entertaining, but I have a hard time arguing that a screen actor, Victoria's Secret model, or soccer player should be worthy of a visa and a social media star, OnlyFans model, or a professional Counter Strike player shouldn't is not. It's all just entertainment.
I am not a lawyer. But OF models using O1 visa is totally fine. It is the intended purpose. The visa itself is meant for researchers, scholars who have job offers, athletes, actors etc. it has no cap and clear criteria. OF models who make a lot of money should totally qualify for this.
Also this visa in uncapped so giving visas to OF models does not take away anything from scientists and others.
O visa's original intent was to help pretty ladies from Eastern Europe to be brought into the country as indentured workers. That is why it is so easy to get this visa for an actor or a fashion model but very tough to get someone for their research.
I thought the reason for this to be a visa is because their fields' activities were in-person (acting in movies/plays/shows, academic life & research, sports training & leagues, etc). A streamer / OF worker is not like that as far as I know (but e-sports is). So this is purely to bring people with money and/or influence, nothing exceptional except the number of 0's.
OF models make money until a certain age though. Sure, not too different to the current job market you could argue, but usually any "influencer" career today is quite short lived if you haven't a very specific niche.
In my country prostitution is legal, but I think some countries are very hypocritical here about OF.
For all other candidates, at least three of the following criteria must be met in order to qualify for the O1B visa:
Having been or will be performing a lead or starring role in productions or events which have a distinguished national or international reputation (as evidenced by critical reviews, advertisements, press releases, publications contracts, or endorsements)
Critical reviews or other published material in professional or major trade publications or in the major media by or about the applicant which show that the applicant has achieved national or international recognition or achievements
Evidence of performance in a lead, starring or critical role for organizations or establishments with distinguished reputations
Evidence of a record of major commercial or critically acclaimed successes in the performing arts, as shown by box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
Evidence of significant recognition for achievements from organizations, government agencies, or other recognized experts in the field
Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
Other comparable evidence (This category is not available for those in the motion picture industry)
For traditional arts, you've gotta be good.
For an influencer... some number of anonymous followers?
There are certainly some that would qualify... but it they should be held to the same standards as others.
There's a boy band, Boy Throb who specifically leveraged visa application in their recent content, and their immigration attorney advised the visa would be approved when they got 1,000,000 followers. They filmed themselves singing and dancing outside the US Immigration office to help one of their members applications.
Their visa application content is rather silly/absurd:
For a Youtube influencer I can see them meet 3 of the criteria by showing their influence on others, money earned, Youtube awards for viewership (by Google!). Maybe some platforms lend themselves more to being used for this sort of evidence than others.
- Evidence of a record of major commercial or critically acclaimed successes in the performing arts, as shown by box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
- Evidence of significant recognition for achievements from organizations, government agencies, or other recognized experts in the field
- Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
A lot of youtube influencers are damn good at entertainment though, and a lot of “traditional media” entertainers are truely horrid. Ever seen a reality tv show? lol
> > advertisements, press releases, publications contracts, or endorsements
> > box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
> > Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
I fail to see the distinction you are trying to draw. Commercial value and celebrity has always been one of the metrics of "achievement".
The overall gist is that the visa application should be someone who is not easily replaced by an existing local worker that can generate similar value.
At what point do we ever ask ourselves -- "what kind of culture do we want to create for the future of our country?" I don't think a pro soccer player is comparable to an onlyfans contributor. I would much prefer my future kids to be inspired by Cristiano Ronaldo than someone baring themselves on camera.
If what you’re just concerned about people “baring themselves on camera” then they can continue to do that without emigrating to America and it would still affect your culture. The internet is global after all.
Also, it’s going to take more than a few thousand immigrants a year to affect the culture of a country as populous as America.
I see no difference in Cristiano Ronaldo and a porn star and an influencer and whatever you name it. They are all idols that sell stories for people to project their own thoughts and desires onto and get emotional. I would be more worry about my kid believing in celebrities, regardless of who they are.
And the American mainstream culture is filthy anyway. As the old French joke once said the difference of yogurt and the us is that if you leave yogurt for a coupled of hundred years they would develop culture.
The other replies to this show a form of argumentation that's always fascinated me.
You say "We should encourage X over Y" and the retorts are
* "Y will still exist"
* "Y can still be encouraged separately"
* "You should tell me the difference between X and Y"
* "Hey, I found an X that sometimes acts vaguely similar to Y!"
None directly disagree with the original point, but they do imply fault in the original reasoning without providing any proof or requiring any effort.
The third one is a classic, the straw man. A concise implication of error in which a good-faith response would be long-winded and boring comparatively.
To what end?
What are they hoping to get out of disagreeing with someone trying to encouraging our future culture to be one of relative wholesomeness?
... Why take the time out of one's day to say "well... encouraging X is great and all but you know what's better? passive-aggressively working against anyone that suggests it."?
What's wrong with an OnlyFans contributor? It's a self-employed job that services a demand within the economy and pays taxes. It's pretty close to the ideal job an immigrant can have since the product is already globalized but the revenue is not - i.e. an OnlyFans influencer with an American audience who moves to America is now bringing that income back into the economy via taxes and spending, or if they have an international audience they are attracting foreign dollars into your economy and strengthening your currency position.
It's not "just entertainment". We want extraordinary athletes and musicians to inspire people and show them what humans are capable of. Extraordinary prostitutes are generally not inspiring people in the way that most people probably would like society to move. It's fine to place different amounts of cultural value on these things and not remain neutral about the worth of all possible human endeavors.
When someone describes themselves as an "influencer", it is entirely appropriate to ask what sort of influence they're having, and whether we want that.
Lots of extraordinary athletes are not good role models, yet we still grant them O1 visas. Many of them have many children to different women and are terrible fathers. To me, influencers are like the athletes of the attention economy. In the old world (20+ years ago, before iPhones), media was much more tightly controlled. It was harder to get famous. Now with mobile Internet, a new, parallel fame hierarchy that appeared. To me, most influencers seem like popular people from high school, but they use social media to extend their reach and shelf-life.
+1. While supreme court defines the likes of porn as freedom of expression, it's a different thing for a country to want different kinds of professions to be more common through its immigration system.
While I know you wrote this in jest, you raise a very good point! A lot of people with STEM jobs unwind after a long day by watching or listening to comedy -- TV, film, stand-up, YouTube, whatever. I have no issue with it. Also, lots of them go home and play video games. That is another form of entertainment (fun).
I guess the question is why do virtual/internet stars need to be in the US? Actors or musicians would have primarily performed live or been recorded live, in US cities. But an OF model? Why does this person need to be physically located in the US at all? What is the benefit to the person, or to the US?
Benefit to the person is probably a path to citizenship and more economic opportunities (especially since being a camgirl is a young person’s career with almost no long-term prospects)
Benefit to the USA, being generous, is that those earnings of the camgirl may then be spent in the US instead of flowing overseas. At least some of it will.
Critics would rightly point out though that importing thousands of camgirls increases demand for apartments (and even more than the typical person because I bet they’re less likely to live with roommates than a typical woman of the same age) and we have a massive housing crisis in all cities. Maybe if the camgirls want to move to the rust belt or something, it could still work out net positive.
The benefit to the person is going to vary. For one reason or another they prefer to be in US rather than wherever they currently are. I'm sure each person has their own unique set of reasons, but it's not hard to imagine.
A benefit for the US is increased GDP, tax revenue, etc.
> What is the benefit to the person, or to the US?
Not that I encourage it but... Obviously an OF model moving to the US means US users viewing that person now stop sending money abroad. And people from all over the world watching that model now send money to the US.
It's not just tax revenues: it's shifting the balance of money in the US's favor. If an OF model makes $10m a year and pays $2m in taxes, it's not just $2m in tax revenues for the US: it's also in addition to that $8m that are now spent/staying in the US.
I can think of maybe two musicians who might be said to fit in that tight intersection.
Brian May (guitarist from Queen) who has an astrophysics PhD from Imperial College London
Professor Brian Cox who teaches Physics at Manchester University and is a public face of science of tv here in the UK was keyboardist for one-hit-wonder band d-reem who had a hit in the 90s with “Things can only get better”.
Brian May is really the only one who is a superstar musician but Brian Cox is a more significant scientist.
> Does anyone know on which work visa do models come in then? It can’t be H1B…
The H-1B1 visa is the one that we're mostly familiar with. Specialist occupations that require "[t]heoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and [a]ttainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States."
The H-1B2 visa is for DOD Researcher and Development Project Worker.
The H-1B3 visa is for... Fashion Model
> The position/services must require a fashion model of prominence.
> To be eligible for this visa category you must be a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability.
For what it's worth, as a O-1 scientist you have to provide evidence that you:
...are a member of scholarly/professional organizations;
...have published original research works scientifically and internationally (peer reviewed publications);
...that you have judged the work of others (supervised and/or examined Ph.D. candidates);
...that you have consulted to governments;
...that you have repeatedly been invited as guest speaker at conferences, trade fairs or universities;
...that you won major international scholarships and awards (e.g. best paper awards at conferences, Masters's/doctoral scholarships from prestigious universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard or MIT;
...that three referees that are themselves O-1 level equivalents deem you worthy of receiving O-1 status;
...that you are a named inventor on patent applications and granted patents;
...that you have received media coverage;
...that you abilities are reflected in higher than typical compensation/salary/remuneration;
...that you won major international scholarships and awards (e.g. best paper awards at conferences, Masters's/doctoral scholarships from prestigious universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard or MIT; or
...that you have published significant works (i.e., works that created impact through citations, business creation, or software systems using the methods described therein).
Usually, from an official ist similar to the above (which I re-wrote from memory here), three out of nine or so checkboxes is the lowest bar for an O-1, and if you tick all of them and work with a specialist law firm, then it should be a slam dunk; my O-1 took about six months from application to grant back in 2008 (no payments of any "expediting fees" if they exist were made as far as I know).
arguably the O-1B is more necessary than the O-1A. If you didn't have an O-1B you couldn't have a bjork come and give a concert in the US and get paid for it, you couldn't have an emma thompson come and shoot for a hollywood film and get paid for it, you couldn't hold ANY major international sporting events, etc.
I personally find this opinion typical of HN readers, and I argue that successful influencers/pretty-people can easily beat more serious professions in terms of economic value, because the vast majority of people are more human than the average HN reader.
I think back when it was just actors, musicians, athletes, etc. it was in a time when there were gatekeepers for whether or not those people had any actual talent in an art.
Whether or not those gatekeepers were right is another matter, but there was some guy in an office in a skyscraper who you had to impress, and if you did, you could get in.
Now, that guy's effectively gone. Aiden Ross, Jack Doherty - that kind of guy - couldn't have impressed a big wig. But now, they don't have to. They have to make people pay attention to them on YouTube/Instagram/TikTok/Twitch, and that's it. And they do that and they can get people to give them insane money to do so because they want access to that audience. Quality doesn't matter anymore.
You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ. This is the future of culture. These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification.
Influencers as the future of culture is not great. Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class? If you watch an interview with Mr. Beast or other famous influencers they are concerningly ignorant, have little self-awareness and a child-like approach to reality. It makes total sense given these are teenagers who were lauded with fame for entertaining other teenagers on social media.
I watched the Mr. Beast episode of David Letterman's show, and I had no expectations but figured he must have some charisma as the most watched youtube person. He was unable to explain basic concepts, had no self-awareness, and generally seemed detached from any sort of reality. It was shocking to think that is who is shaping young peoples minds.
“but it at least had some... class”
Not if you’d have asked the WASPs at the time, they very much looedk down on Hollywood. Saw it as vulgar and beneath them for many of the same reasons people dislike MrBeast. The 'class' only came afterwards.
> Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class?
It looked that way because they had media training and their public personas were carefully managed, with staged interviews and media appearances. Behind the scenes, it’s a different story.
Influencers are rewarded for seeming authentic. Mr Beast coming across badly in a traditional TV interview just makes his audience think he’s more real.
Hollywood actors being vapid idiots is a trope, or rather reality, as old as Hollywood. Every time they go on Letterman they have to carefully follow the script written for them to avoid embarrassing themselves and the industry. And they often fail at that.
BTW, actors are very often prostitutes. Have been since ancient times and the association has stuck. Mediterranean yachts are packed full of C-lister actresses/hookers. Not to mention most of them get jobs by sleeping with producers, which is just an indirect form of prostitution. I don't know about you, but classy is the last way I'd describe Jennifer Lawrence sucking Weinstein's dick.
I think things like "classiness," "grace," and "tact" are all but dead, both in Hollywood and across the population. Everyone seems to be mentally teenagers, but in middle-age bodies.
To use anecdotes of specific influencers or even to cultural short/med-term memes misses the OP’s fundamental point in saying
> “this is the future of culture”.
The point is that the future of “culture” is increasingly decentralized; that the ability or more aptly, the opportunity, to accumulate “cultural influence” will tend towards higher entropy as a direct repercussion to the proliferation of the means to accumulate it.
Put differently, as the hardware and software used to record, store, and share content become more widely accessible, anyone with the access and motivation to use the tools truly has the opportunity to become famous.
When I was a kid, I used to world WWF (World Wrestling Federation) with my best friend. We loved the interviews (pre/post "fight"). Those guys were idiots and certainly "detached from any sort of reality", but also very funny to 10 year old boys! I also liked Jean-Claude Van Damme movies. I turned out just fine.
'Class','taste' etc these are all very subjective. One could argue that Mr Beast built all of his fame from scratch and didnt have it handed to him or having to sleep with some powerful gatekeeper - something you can't say about all your 'classy' hollywood stars. If you go back a century you can probably find people kvetching about the lack of class of these new fangled movie people compared to the theater stars of their day (who actually had to know how to act)
If one of America's main exports is culture, why would you ban factor inputs?
They're also not fungible and extremely mobile. People get attached to specific OF stars and the medium inherently requires remote work. So it's an inherently global labour force that protectionism won't help. American OF models won't magically make more money if you ban immigration unless you also ban cultural imports.
The government isn't displacing local talent by importing OF models and gets tax dollars for essentially doing nothing. Those tax dollars pay for schools/hospitals/etc.
OF also skews towards young, unmarried women, which balances the gender surplus of unmarried men that generally tries to immigrate. Since they're young, they also have more productivity before drawing on benefits like Medicare or Social Security.
By any objective standard OF models are the ideal migrant.
...I get this is HN but come on. It is just modern day JasminCam for lonely men that are being exploited through parasocial relationships. It is the opposite of productive. You just have society feeding on itself.
This seems more like importing culture. These content creators aren't coming to work or American creators, they are coming to America to create their content for American audiences or using American resources.
> why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2
The reason why Hollywood even exists is because it was a way of escaping the enforcement of patents and royalties. And it is easy being the cultural center of the western world when everything other cultural-relevant city in the western hemisphere is somewhat in ruins. Other than that, the lettering is a racist monument of a bygone era.
> You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ
I'm not a US citizen, but lets face it - there is some irony in seeing some scientists fleeing for abroad offers, some probably deported, and having influencers or glorified strippers benefiting from some ill-thought program.
> These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume.
Do you have kids? I do. People don't give 2 f** about Hollywood or their "stars". Maybe in america. We have our own clowns here, and 15 minutes of fame doesn't require being predated on by some director (thankfully). My daughter couldn't name a single actor even if she wanted to - because movies are (mostly) dead, and series are a commodity. And I'm not saying this as some weirdo who doesn't own a TV or something - we have Disney, SkyShowTime, HBO, Amazon, etc. Its just "kids dont care about that anymore".
> They create the memes of six-seven-ification
So, do you know what that means exactly? Are you a Skrilla’s fan? Just asking, because from the tone of your response, you seem to have no idea of the meaning - just like kids saying "theez nuts" or whatever.
Another reason why US media is so dominant: It has the largest population of any English-majority speaking nation. Another thing: English is the second language for an large portion of people under 40 in the world.
I remember when I first learned about the size of the Japenese media market (TV, film, music). It is ENORMOUS. I could not understand how, as 99% of Japanese language speakers live in Japan. Then I realised that Japan is highly developed (wealthy) and has a huge internal market of ~120 million people.
> My daughter couldn't name a single actor even if she wanted to
I doubt it. You should ask her. If she is 10 years or older, she certainly has some favourites. If she has social media, ask her who she follows. I am sure there are a bunch of actors & actresses in her list. I'm not saying this to pass any judgement on you as a parent. Only that I doubt the authenticity of your statement.
I have no judgement on these models. Everyone can make money through legal means as they deem fit.
But at the same time, the immigration system historically penalized anyone who engages in prostitution and actively denied entry to people found to be engaged in it. There is an explicit question about this in all immigration forms. Which is why it’s surprising that O-1 visas are being awarded to OnlyFans models. Maybe OF isn’t prostitution according to how it’s being interpreted, but it’s very surprising.
Idk if you mean it literally but conflating the sort of prostitution they ask about on immigration forms with taking naked pictures of yourself seems very wrong.
Disclaimer: I don't mean this comment as an insult to you or anyone else here. It's meant to be slightly tongue in cheek.
I hate to be that person, but the fact that so many people on HN think OF is prostitution is revealing of the site's demographics (i.e. older). It is, as some may put it, boomer thinking.
You're misunderstanding what these people - esports athletes, successful streamers, influencers, OF models etc - actually do. They create and maintain parasocial relationships.
The point isn't just the gameplay or nudes / sex videos or commentary. For e.g., I (and a bunch of other young women for some reason) love to watch Temet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go8EJbNaIHg while working. It's the way they reflect back to their audience and allow them to become a part of their performance.
It's kind of like the place where everyone knows your name? These are digital third places and the content (whether it be neon blue bunny hopping characters or a graphic video of someone having sex) is a mechanism for bonding / a part of the activity. Kind of like the alcohol at the pub, I suppose.
That's where real influence comes from in this age.
If you think OF is prostitution, you're fundamentally misunderstanding what will drive power and culture in this century.
But influencers are by default distributed and don't really need to be in a single place. Most of their collabs are in luxurious venues around the world (Because we live in a world worshipping rich stuff but that s another matter)
>These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification.
I'd disagree, six-seven-ification is caused by the human desire for clout and tribal motivations - I'd argue that social currency is the reason people pursue fiat currency; ask yourself this, if I have you $100 billion, but you could not interact with any human beings from then on, would that $100 billion still matter?
Rather than influencers forcing memes, "six-seven-ification" arises organically from the authors' pursuing of belonging/clout within a tribe. What I would say is more interesting is that the lifetime of such cultural outputs is becoming more and more fleeting.
For Millenials & gen X our memes seemed to have quite a bit of permanence over the years. For the boomers and silent generations before us, their cultures were even more static (and traditional) by comparison. For gen z/a it seems their cultural language changes month to month, sometimes week to week.
Memes aren't enjoyed for years now, they're enjoyed for a few months. Horizontally spinning rat, Coffin dance, etc are all ancient history now.
And you can see the reaction to this; there are spikes in search interest on a lot of classic (2005-2015) memes, Gen Z is desperately embracing retro tech like camcorders, polaroids and 90s/00s outfits in a snap back to reality. The gravity of this cannot be understated.
The argument from cinema is flaky and a moral critique of Hollywood's influence is unavoidable. But we're talking about porn here, not cinema. This is decadence and depravity. How can you confuse cinema with the construction of an international whoredom? The numbers are also incommensurate.
And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck.
Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society.
This use of O-1 visas is merely another sign of the downward trajectory of our polity. We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly. Perhaps aesthetically, it is fitting that Trump is the poster boy of this abuse of O-1 visas, but he is at best an emanation and a catalyst of broader and deeper social and cultural processes. In the absence of a minimum of sound moral authority, you can expect the poison that lurks in the mud to hatch out and begin to dominate the polis.
>And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck.
My brother, you've just described modern American culture perfectly.
> Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society.
I am sure there would have been people at the time decrying the creation of pigments and paints as the fall of civilization due to "decadence and depravity." Didn't matter much, did it?
> We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly
Plato was a wrestler. Plato would like totally be a gym bro, bro.
It has been a while since I've read Republic, but I remember Book 8 differently. To quote the IEP,
Tyranny arises out of democracy when the desire for freedom to do what one wants becomes extreme (562b-c). The freedom or license aimed at in the democracy becomes so extreme that any limitations on anyone’s freedom seem unfair. Socrates points out that when freedom is taken to such an extreme it produces its opposite, slavery (563e-564a). The tyrant comes about by presenting himself as a champion of the people against the class of the few people who are wealthy (565d-566a). The tyrant is forced to commit a number of acts to gain and retain power: accuse people falsely, attack his kinsmen, bring people to trial under false pretenses, kill many people, exile many people, and purport to cancel the debts of the poor to gain their support (565e-566a). The tyrant eliminates the rich, brave, and wise people in the city since he perceives them as threats to his power (567c). Socrates indicates that the tyrant faces the dilemma to either live with worthless people or with good people who may eventually depose him and chooses to live with worthless people (567d). The tyrant ends up using mercenaries as his guards since he cannot trust any of the citizens (567d-e). The tyrant also needs a very large army and will spend the city’s money (568d-e), and will not hesitate to kill members of his own family if they resist his ways (569b-c).
This summary matches my recollection more closely than yours. Could you please quote primary sources on what exactly you mean by "Plato's description of social decline?"
The title is misleading. It says “dominating” however no sources or percentages are provided. And later in the article it only says “increasingly applying”, with just two examples.
I do have a friend (very popular drummer-YouTuber who makes covers, has millions of subs) who did get an O visa because he actually is a, kinda, celebrity, so I guess this is indeed happening occasionally. But nothing is being “dominated” here.
To be clear: TFA is a thinly veiled legal services advertisement ("submarine" in HN parlance), so "dominated" is being used as a hype-generation / reality distortion term.
That said, the reality of today is so-called influencers and OF sex workers are now becoming a relevant fraction of applicants compared to the past where they represented 0%. Is it possible fixating on the word "dominating" a bit overly pedantic?
There is already a lot going on here without pedantry.
I would also note that, even if the title is accurate, and (say) 90% of applications are from social media influencers, it doesn't even make a claim about how many are granted. It could be that countless influencers are applying... and being rejected.
One of my past manager was on a O-1 (in a tech company); he was from india.
So, it goes like this, you register to be a presenter in a conference, copy some material from another tech talk and (re-)present it there as a novelty (rince and repeat). Pretty Simple. Step #2, create your facebook, youtube channel (etc.) and buy subscribers (from mediamister.com, getafollower.com, views4you.com, socialwick.com, buzzoid.com, etc) which is perfectly legal; he must have spent 10% of his salary to buy millions of subscribers; and that's how he's been working in tech for the past 10+ years.
Do you have evidence this was true? This sounds like a good story but I thought getting these visas was mostly about revenue receipts, and if he bought a lot of subscribers, they must've been subscribing to something that paid him.
Most of the scientists and engineers I know are on different visas. The US has gained a ton from being largely the cultural center of the world so it's good that there's a visa to take in cultural figures (even if I don't personally connect with influencer culture). As social media is new and fairly spread out, especially compared to traditional recipients like models and actors, it seems really unsurprising they are a ton of these now. I would say the problem is less we are taking in influencers and more we aren't accepting other people.
> The O-1 category includes the O-1A, which is designated for individuals with extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business or athletics and the O-1B, reserved for those with “extraordinary ability or achievement”.
> My whole thing is being the funny Jewish girl with big boobs.
The O-1B category is broad because it's mostly entertainment based so there's more squishy room two of the requirements match a Top OF model though.
> Evidence of a record of major commercial or critically acclaimed successes in the performing arts, as shown by box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
> Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
A high earning OF model ticks both of those boxes pretty easily. We don't want to put dollar amounts on it to only attract movie stars because other professions don't pay as well would be blocked out and an explicit filter on (heh) explicit O1 visas would be a content based restriction that would (or at least imo should) be a 1A infringement. [0]
People are getting hung up on definitions of extraordinary. The thing you need to understand is that US immigration is a political blackhole. The main pathways to immigrate to the US are family, misery (asylum, refugee, tps), or luck (diversity). Employment or economic immigration is frowned upon and visas like H-1B are limited and exploitative and still ultimately politically unpopular as the masses don't want to compete. So, that leaves O-1 as an escape hatch for a basic economic immigration visa that won't rile up the masses. Afterall, a chud does not reasonably believe that an influencer or a pornstar is stealing his job. So it goes.
O1 would probably want to see a huge number of followers. An OG model with a large following is someone with a huge amount of agency. Probably the highest agency sex worker of them all. Impossible to traffic
I wonder how much of the follower count is addressable. You can call to action for political followers but as a porn actor your values ends where your flesh stops being shown.
Because OF models are models... so I wonder if model management companies are upset about folks selling content directly to consumers without abusive middle management and drumming up outrage to protect their shitty business model.
Say what you want about sites like OF, but at least the performers get a huge chunk of the earnings.
If you are a professional in a sphere like engineering, then getting eg 10k views on your videos is very remarkable and acts as a indirect proof of acclaim. But when it is the whole metric, then it just overvalues public professions where in itself 10k views is nothing remarkable. That's the core issue as far as I understand.
(But even for professionals, it's a very gameable metric. There is a whole industry that helps getting published material and appearances for O-1 applications.)
Proof of interest, not acclaim. And online interest is heavily skewed to the narrow activities of entertainment and education - professional community communication happens but in far smaller numbers vs the other two.
By 1994, I was in triumphant optimism. I was young-ish, my country was in for its most beautiful decade ever, and the internet seemed to herald a time of final Liberation, with the Earth becoming home to a single, global scientist-philosopher society.
And so, suddenly, we find ourselves mired between traditionalist discomfort and pragmatic acceptance, an unglamorous terminus for earlier dreams of Human synthesis.
How is "extraordinary ability" defined? At what point does an influencer or OF model (or a traditional actor for that matter) have enough "extortionary ability" to get the visa?
Because they want to stay longer than tourist visas allow. And because most places (US definitely included) don't let you work remotely on a tourist visa either, with a few exceptions that wouldn't cover them sufficiently.
I hope the best for every people out there, including every usa citizen, but money alone won't attract every human profile under the sun, and unleashed imperialism which don't even pretend to export democracy anymore is doing nothing good for the the image of the country I'm afraid.
What a world really! Take care everything, might safety and peace remain on you and your relatives.
It is for this reason I am grateful to be a gen xr. I was at the end of my 20s when social media blew up, so it wasn’t a meaningful part of my personal development. I cannot bring myself to look at IG and the hot mess it serves up daily. A hyper focused lens on the potential of human desperation and stupidity.
I don’t hate on the younger generation, I feel bad they grew up with this shit and try to be a positive influence.
I see people of legit talent from doctors, to chemists and musicians dedicate themselves to posting content. What people don’t understand is survivor bias. For every success story you read about, how many people are going in reverse and not experiencing social mobility (and get depressed from it).
How do you know that the followers are not bots? It seems that on platforms with a clear bot problem like X, it would be relatively easy to hit that 1M target if you are willing to pay a bot farm.
That's for only one of the subtypes of visa. The official site (https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...) mentions a few more options, which would probably turn out to cover onlyfans if you get the right sort of professional advice:
> The O-1 nonimmigrant visa is for the individual who possesses extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics, or who has a demonstrated record of extraordinary achievement in the motion picture or television industry and has been recognized nationally or internationally for those achievements
I mostly don’t care about influencers and OnlyFan, but that… Seems fine to me?
If you managed to amass 1M followers you clearly have strong abilities as an entertainer. The fact that the medium is different than what used to be the norm shouldn’t have an impact.
just make it $ contingent OF models make ordinary income if someone is pulling in several million USD a year they are going to be paying a ton of taxes here. What is the downside?
Whatever the case may be, this has nothing to do with morals, but rather with classification of it as an "extraordinary" ability. Talking about that, instead of seething and name-calling, you could show us your extraordinary ability to go back to Reddit.
I struggle to understand who pays for OF content and who follows them ? From what I've read 99% of OF is porn in some form or another. So there are millions of people who create accounts and pay for it - linking their personnal info to this thing ?
As for the visa, it's not surprising and obviously idiotic for the society, but from the 'merit' standpoints it feels about right - if somebody has 10M followers, it's not that different from a radio or tv star.
Also, I’m sorry you think cam girls and people who #ad carbonated water are considered skilled in the context of work and contributing to society meaningfully..
> “I don’t think [people] realize how much work actually goes into it,” she said. “You might not agree with the way the money is being made, or what people are watching, but people are still watching and paying for it.”
Try now to convince a young person to become a doctor or an engineer, when an OF individual can make in a day what they will make in 40y, assuming they found a job anyway. Idiocracy was a glimpse into the future, not a movie.
That's because you compare a median doctor/engineer with the best OF individuals. Wouldn't you want to compare them with Sergey Brin/Thomas Frist in this case.
Couldn't the same be said of all professions in which some people earn a lot, such as acting, sports, singing, entertainment in general, and which are considered less “serious” than the professions of medical doctor and engineer?
One might say that, in theory, the well-earning actor or actress has to show some craft at least, but there are plenty of actors whose popularity comes only from their looks--my dog would act better than them.
A lot of the youngsters who'd decide to make money undressing themselves on OF will soon realize they might have the will, but they lack the market power.
Presumably it's a Great Replacement dog whistle and the implication is that OnlyFans is a Jewish conspiracy to make white men impotent and to replace them with a different/preffered demographic. Total antisemitic garbage (and not in the sense that "any criticism of AIPAC is antisemitism," but actual and old school antisemitism).
It's conceivable that that isn't what they mean but I doubt it. Let's just flag that comment and move on, it's flamebait of the worst order.
"Whoever knowingly transports any individual in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both"
The area seems greyer when, as happens in some operations, one person A is getting paid to have sex, and the other person B having the sex is paying person A, even if B is filming the sex and selling the video.
I think it's naïve to think that these girls are only very strictly selling feet images and are not in the business of having sex for money as well.
Especially when you consider the top-heavy success distribution. Sure there's influencers that have 100M views, but theres thousands of influencers with 300 views, are they going to be just happy with selling pictures for 10 bucks? Or will they follow the whales until they are paid to be flown into the prostitution assembly line, with or without visas.
It's funny, early on it says
> The O-1 category includes the O-1A, which is designated for individuals with extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business or athletics and the O-1B, reserved for those with “extraordinary ability or achievement”.
Then later it says
> The O-1B visa, once reserved for Hollywood titans and superstar musicians, has evolved over the years.
I understand those two aren't necessarily contradictory, but the wording of the first sentence paints a very different mental picture than the second one (at least it did for me), especially since they throw in the O-1A and then almost exclusively talk about people applying for the O-1B after that.
Personally, I don't want the US choosing to give visas to influencers over scientists, but if this visa was already being heavily used to bring in actors, musicians, and athletes I don't see what the hubbub is about. I don't use TikTok or OnlyFans and I don't find e-sports entertaining, but I have a hard time arguing that a screen actor, Victoria's Secret model, or soccer player should be worthy of a visa and a social media star, OnlyFans model, or a professional Counter Strike player shouldn't is not. It's all just entertainment.
I am not a lawyer. But OF models using O1 visa is totally fine. It is the intended purpose. The visa itself is meant for researchers, scholars who have job offers, athletes, actors etc. it has no cap and clear criteria. OF models who make a lot of money should totally qualify for this.
Also this visa in uncapped so giving visas to OF models does not take away anything from scientists and others.
O visa's original intent was to help pretty ladies from Eastern Europe to be brought into the country as indentured workers. That is why it is so easy to get this visa for an actor or a fashion model but very tough to get someone for their research.
So all this is working as intended.
I thought the reason for this to be a visa is because their fields' activities were in-person (acting in movies/plays/shows, academic life & research, sports training & leagues, etc). A streamer / OF worker is not like that as far as I know (but e-sports is). So this is purely to bring people with money and/or influence, nothing exceptional except the number of 0's.
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TBH the president's (current) wife came in on an O1 visa too - as was the original intent like you said.
> O visa's original intent was to help pretty ladies from Eastern Europe to be brought into the country as indentured workers
That seems like something we should fix?
OF models make money until a certain age though. Sure, not too different to the current job market you could argue, but usually any "influencer" career today is quite short lived if you haven't a very specific niche.
In my country prostitution is legal, but I think some countries are very hypocritical here about OF.
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Why does someone doing OF need to be in the country? You can upload pictures from anywhere.
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It's the difference in difficulty for the criteria.
https://www.pathlawgroup.com/o1b-visa-requirements/
For traditional arts, you've gotta be good.
For an influencer... some number of anonymous followers?
There are certainly some that would qualify... but it they should be held to the same standards as others.
There's a boy band, Boy Throb who specifically leveraged visa application in their recent content, and their immigration attorney advised the visa would be approved when they got 1,000,000 followers. They filmed themselves singing and dancing outside the US Immigration office to help one of their members applications.
Their visa application content is rather silly/absurd:
https://www.tiktok.com/@boy.throb/video/7572273147743980831
https://www.tiktok.com/@boy.throb/video/7567806911580622110
https://www.tiktok.com/@boy.throb/video/7584876341267270943
For a Youtube influencer I can see them meet 3 of the criteria by showing their influence on others, money earned, Youtube awards for viewership (by Google!). Maybe some platforms lend themselves more to being used for this sort of evidence than others.
- Evidence of a record of major commercial or critically acclaimed successes in the performing arts, as shown by box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
- Evidence of significant recognition for achievements from organizations, government agencies, or other recognized experts in the field
- Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
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I wonder people who have enough karma on the HN leaderboard would count...
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Well if your audience is larger than an average CNN show, and you earn north of a million a year, don't you qualify?
A lot of youtube influencers are damn good at entertainment though, and a lot of “traditional media” entertainers are truely horrid. Ever seen a reality tv show? lol
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Seeing as how it's is trivial to buy followers, that metric should be completely abandoned, it's not legitimate.
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> For traditional arts, you've gotta be good.
> > advertisements, press releases, publications contracts, or endorsements
> > box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
> > Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
I fail to see the distinction you are trying to draw. Commercial value and celebrity has always been one of the metrics of "achievement".
The overall gist is that the visa application should be someone who is not easily replaced by an existing local worker that can generate similar value.
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At what point do we ever ask ourselves -- "what kind of culture do we want to create for the future of our country?" I don't think a pro soccer player is comparable to an onlyfans contributor. I would much prefer my future kids to be inspired by Cristiano Ronaldo than someone baring themselves on camera.
Yet CR7 is routinely photographed baring himself on camera, which is one of the reasons he's so popular.
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If what you’re just concerned about people “baring themselves on camera” then they can continue to do that without emigrating to America and it would still affect your culture. The internet is global after all.
Also, it’s going to take more than a few thousand immigrants a year to affect the culture of a country as populous as America.
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I see no difference in Cristiano Ronaldo and a porn star and an influencer and whatever you name it. They are all idols that sell stories for people to project their own thoughts and desires onto and get emotional. I would be more worry about my kid believing in celebrities, regardless of who they are. And the American mainstream culture is filthy anyway. As the old French joke once said the difference of yogurt and the us is that if you leave yogurt for a coupled of hundred years they would develop culture.
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The other replies to this show a form of argumentation that's always fascinated me.
You say "We should encourage X over Y" and the retorts are
None directly disagree with the original point, but they do imply fault in the original reasoning without providing any proof or requiring any effort.
The third one is a classic, the straw man. A concise implication of error in which a good-faith response would be long-winded and boring comparatively.
To what end?
What are they hoping to get out of disagreeing with someone trying to encouraging our future culture to be one of relative wholesomeness?
... Why take the time out of one's day to say "well... encouraging X is great and all but you know what's better? passive-aggressively working against anyone that suggests it."?
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The more I hear about culture, the more I think it seems like the new age mysticism of the right
What's wrong with an OnlyFans contributor? It's a self-employed job that services a demand within the economy and pays taxes. It's pretty close to the ideal job an immigrant can have since the product is already globalized but the revenue is not - i.e. an OnlyFans influencer with an American audience who moves to America is now bringing that income back into the economy via taxes and spending, or if they have an international audience they are attracting foreign dollars into your economy and strengthening your currency position.
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You should look into Ivanka Trump. It's quite funny.
Never, none of this shit matters
They don't believe in the concept of a culture improving or declining. It's an axiom of a certain ideology that no culture can be inferior to another.
what is the difference?
It's not "just entertainment". We want extraordinary athletes and musicians to inspire people and show them what humans are capable of. Extraordinary prostitutes are generally not inspiring people in the way that most people probably would like society to move. It's fine to place different amounts of cultural value on these things and not remain neutral about the worth of all possible human endeavors.
When someone describes themselves as an "influencer", it is entirely appropriate to ask what sort of influence they're having, and whether we want that.
Lots of extraordinary athletes are not good role models, yet we still grant them O1 visas. Many of them have many children to different women and are terrible fathers. To me, influencers are like the athletes of the attention economy. In the old world (20+ years ago, before iPhones), media was much more tightly controlled. It was harder to get famous. Now with mobile Internet, a new, parallel fame hierarchy that appeared. To me, most influencers seem like popular people from high school, but they use social media to extend their reach and shelf-life.
+1. While supreme court defines the likes of porn as freedom of expression, it's a different thing for a country to want different kinds of professions to be more common through its immigration system.
Entertainment is an industry :)
It would be unwise to filter out the fun people. We'd all become a bunch of unfun nerds.
Sir, this is HN. Being an unfun nerd is practically a prerequisite.
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While I know you wrote this in jest, you raise a very good point! A lot of people with STEM jobs unwind after a long day by watching or listening to comedy -- TV, film, stand-up, YouTube, whatever. I have no issue with it. Also, lots of them go home and play video games. That is another form of entertainment (fun).
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Kinda funny this comment is downvoted!
I guess the question is why do virtual/internet stars need to be in the US? Actors or musicians would have primarily performed live or been recorded live, in US cities. But an OF model? Why does this person need to be physically located in the US at all? What is the benefit to the person, or to the US?
Benefit to the person is probably a path to citizenship and more economic opportunities (especially since being a camgirl is a young person’s career with almost no long-term prospects)
Benefit to the USA, being generous, is that those earnings of the camgirl may then be spent in the US instead of flowing overseas. At least some of it will.
Critics would rightly point out though that importing thousands of camgirls increases demand for apartments (and even more than the typical person because I bet they’re less likely to live with roommates than a typical woman of the same age) and we have a massive housing crisis in all cities. Maybe if the camgirls want to move to the rust belt or something, it could still work out net positive.
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The benefit to the person is going to vary. For one reason or another they prefer to be in US rather than wherever they currently are. I'm sure each person has their own unique set of reasons, but it's not hard to imagine.
A benefit for the US is increased GDP, tax revenue, etc.
> What is the benefit to the person, or to the US?
Not that I encourage it but... Obviously an OF model moving to the US means US users viewing that person now stop sending money abroad. And people from all over the world watching that model now send money to the US.
It's not just tax revenues: it's shifting the balance of money in the US's favor. If an OF model makes $10m a year and pays $2m in taxes, it's not just $2m in tax revenues for the US: it's also in addition to that $8m that are now spent/staying in the US.
Tax revenue
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Because they want to
What the fuck?
I can think of maybe two musicians who might be said to fit in that tight intersection.
Brian May (guitarist from Queen) who has an astrophysics PhD from Imperial College London
Professor Brian Cox who teaches Physics at Manchester University and is a public face of science of tv here in the UK was keyboardist for one-hit-wonder band d-reem who had a hit in the 90s with “Things can only get better”.
Brian May is really the only one who is a superstar musician but Brian Cox is a more significant scientist.
I’ve been thinking lately a lot of female pornographic actresses on sites such as Brazzers don’t have US origins.
Does anyone know on which work visa do models come in then? It can’t be H1B…
> Does anyone know on which work visa do models come in then? It can’t be H1B…
The H-1B1 visa is the one that we're mostly familiar with. Specialist occupations that require "[t]heoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and [a]ttainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States."
The H-1B2 visa is for DOD Researcher and Development Project Worker.
The H-1B3 visa is for... Fashion Model
> The position/services must require a fashion model of prominence.
> To be eligible for this visa category you must be a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-spec... (expand the eligibility criteria)
The specifics of the law are at https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-8/part-214/section-214.2#... - subsection 1 matches H-1B1, 2 matches H-1B2, and 3 matches H-1B3
> 8 CFR 214.2(h)(4)(i)(A)(3) - Will perform services in the field of fashion modeling and who is of distinguished merit and ability.
O1. It was specifically designed for this sort of professions and sports. For example when Chess Grandmasters from India come to USA.
But many are. Stormy Daniels, for example, is American.
For what it's worth, as a O-1 scientist you have to provide evidence that you:
...are a member of scholarly/professional organizations;
...have published original research works scientifically and internationally (peer reviewed publications);
...that you have judged the work of others (supervised and/or examined Ph.D. candidates);
...that you have consulted to governments;
...that you have repeatedly been invited as guest speaker at conferences, trade fairs or universities;
...that you won major international scholarships and awards (e.g. best paper awards at conferences, Masters's/doctoral scholarships from prestigious universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard or MIT;
...that three referees that are themselves O-1 level equivalents deem you worthy of receiving O-1 status;
...that you are a named inventor on patent applications and granted patents;
...that you have received media coverage;
...that you abilities are reflected in higher than typical compensation/salary/remuneration;
...that you won major international scholarships and awards (e.g. best paper awards at conferences, Masters's/doctoral scholarships from prestigious universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard or MIT; or
...that you have published significant works (i.e., works that created impact through citations, business creation, or software systems using the methods described therein).
Usually, from an official ist similar to the above (which I re-wrote from memory here), three out of nine or so checkboxes is the lowest bar for an O-1, and if you tick all of them and work with a specialist law firm, then it should be a slam dunk; my O-1 took about six months from application to grant back in 2008 (no payments of any "expediting fees" if they exist were made as far as I know).
arguably the O-1B is more necessary than the O-1A. If you didn't have an O-1B you couldn't have a bjork come and give a concert in the US and get paid for it, you couldn't have an emma thompson come and shoot for a hollywood film and get paid for it, you couldn't hold ANY major international sporting events, etc.
The painting of idiocracy hits hard doesn't it ?
Which one did Melania qualify for? Type O 1A or O 1B?
E-1, according to Snopes, citing the Washington Post:
https://www.snopes.com/news/2025/07/02/melania-trump-einstei...
I personally find this opinion typical of HN readers, and I argue that successful influencers/pretty-people can easily beat more serious professions in terms of economic value, because the vast majority of people are more human than the average HN reader.
I think back when it was just actors, musicians, athletes, etc. it was in a time when there were gatekeepers for whether or not those people had any actual talent in an art.
Whether or not those gatekeepers were right is another matter, but there was some guy in an office in a skyscraper who you had to impress, and if you did, you could get in.
Now, that guy's effectively gone. Aiden Ross, Jack Doherty - that kind of guy - couldn't have impressed a big wig. But now, they don't have to. They have to make people pay attention to them on YouTube/Instagram/TikTok/Twitch, and that's it. And they do that and they can get people to give them insane money to do so because they want access to that audience. Quality doesn't matter anymore.
Journalist see OnlyFans. Write about it. Click send. Make money.
Being able to shove 5 inch diameter dildo 12 inches up your rectum is extraordinary ability no matter how you slice and dice it. Useless - sure.
If you slice and dice it, it’s not 5 inch or 12 inch.
Sorry couldn’t help
[flagged]
6 minute old account strikes again!
HN is getting overrun, man.
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Can you provide a source for this information?
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Imagine creating an account to make this comment!
basically, US Gov want to tax these ultra rich OnlyFans "model"
that's why they accept so much, the circulation of money would bring an enormous currency more than "traditional" job ever could
I think it's fair to say with the newly evolving markets, governments are fighting to house them and tax them
Tale as old as time.
Dial M for Melania.
Such articles are interesting because they're tacit disapproval, but I would argue that this use of the O-1 is the most American way to use it.
There's a reason why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2, https://goldenglobes.com/articles/exiles-and-emigres-hollywo...
You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ. This is the future of culture. These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification.
Influencers as the future of culture is not great. Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class? If you watch an interview with Mr. Beast or other famous influencers they are concerningly ignorant, have little self-awareness and a child-like approach to reality. It makes total sense given these are teenagers who were lauded with fame for entertaining other teenagers on social media.
I watched the Mr. Beast episode of David Letterman's show, and I had no expectations but figured he must have some charisma as the most watched youtube person. He was unable to explain basic concepts, had no self-awareness, and generally seemed detached from any sort of reality. It was shocking to think that is who is shaping young peoples minds.
“but it at least had some... class” Not if you’d have asked the WASPs at the time, they very much looedk down on Hollywood. Saw it as vulgar and beneath them for many of the same reasons people dislike MrBeast. The 'class' only came afterwards.
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> Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class?
It looked that way because they had media training and their public personas were carefully managed, with staged interviews and media appearances. Behind the scenes, it’s a different story.
Influencers are rewarded for seeming authentic. Mr Beast coming across badly in a traditional TV interview just makes his audience think he’s more real.
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Hollywood actors being vapid idiots is a trope, or rather reality, as old as Hollywood. Every time they go on Letterman they have to carefully follow the script written for them to avoid embarrassing themselves and the industry. And they often fail at that.
BTW, actors are very often prostitutes. Have been since ancient times and the association has stuck. Mediterranean yachts are packed full of C-lister actresses/hookers. Not to mention most of them get jobs by sleeping with producers, which is just an indirect form of prostitution. I don't know about you, but classy is the last way I'd describe Jennifer Lawrence sucking Weinstein's dick.
I think things like "classiness," "grace," and "tact" are all but dead, both in Hollywood and across the population. Everyone seems to be mentally teenagers, but in middle-age bodies.
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To use anecdotes of specific influencers or even to cultural short/med-term memes misses the OP’s fundamental point in saying
> “this is the future of culture”.
The point is that the future of “culture” is increasingly decentralized; that the ability or more aptly, the opportunity, to accumulate “cultural influence” will tend towards higher entropy as a direct repercussion to the proliferation of the means to accumulate it.
Put differently, as the hardware and software used to record, store, and share content become more widely accessible, anyone with the access and motivation to use the tools truly has the opportunity to become famous.
When I was a kid, I used to world WWF (World Wrestling Federation) with my best friend. We loved the interviews (pre/post "fight"). Those guys were idiots and certainly "detached from any sort of reality", but also very funny to 10 year old boys! I also liked Jean-Claude Van Damme movies. I turned out just fine.
'Class','taste' etc these are all very subjective. One could argue that Mr Beast built all of his fame from scratch and didnt have it handed to him or having to sleep with some powerful gatekeeper - something you can't say about all your 'classy' hollywood stars. If you go back a century you can probably find people kvetching about the lack of class of these new fangled movie people compared to the theater stars of their day (who actually had to know how to act)
And how is this is different from movie stars?
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> Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class?
Hollywood took a bribe from the tobacco industry to make smoking "cool" and infect our nation with cigarettes.
> have little self-awareness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpUxn7NybY : "A big opportunity for us is that there are no gatekeepers. There's no one I have to convince to let me do things."
:-)
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If one of America's main exports is culture, why would you ban factor inputs?
They're also not fungible and extremely mobile. People get attached to specific OF stars and the medium inherently requires remote work. So it's an inherently global labour force that protectionism won't help. American OF models won't magically make more money if you ban immigration unless you also ban cultural imports.
The government isn't displacing local talent by importing OF models and gets tax dollars for essentially doing nothing. Those tax dollars pay for schools/hospitals/etc.
OF also skews towards young, unmarried women, which balances the gender surplus of unmarried men that generally tries to immigrate. Since they're young, they also have more productivity before drawing on benefits like Medicare or Social Security.
By any objective standard OF models are the ideal migrant.
...I get this is HN but come on. It is just modern day JasminCam for lonely men that are being exploited through parasocial relationships. It is the opposite of productive. You just have society feeding on itself.
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This seems more like importing culture. These content creators aren't coming to work or American creators, they are coming to America to create their content for American audiences or using American resources.
> why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2
The reason why Hollywood even exists is because it was a way of escaping the enforcement of patents and royalties. And it is easy being the cultural center of the western world when everything other cultural-relevant city in the western hemisphere is somewhat in ruins. Other than that, the lettering is a racist monument of a bygone era.
> You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ
I'm not a US citizen, but lets face it - there is some irony in seeing some scientists fleeing for abroad offers, some probably deported, and having influencers or glorified strippers benefiting from some ill-thought program.
> These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume.
Do you have kids? I do. People don't give 2 f** about Hollywood or their "stars". Maybe in america. We have our own clowns here, and 15 minutes of fame doesn't require being predated on by some director (thankfully). My daughter couldn't name a single actor even if she wanted to - because movies are (mostly) dead, and series are a commodity. And I'm not saying this as some weirdo who doesn't own a TV or something - we have Disney, SkyShowTime, HBO, Amazon, etc. Its just "kids dont care about that anymore".
> They create the memes of six-seven-ification So, do you know what that means exactly? Are you a Skrilla’s fan? Just asking, because from the tone of your response, you seem to have no idea of the meaning - just like kids saying "theez nuts" or whatever.
Another reason why US media is so dominant: It has the largest population of any English-majority speaking nation. Another thing: English is the second language for an large portion of people under 40 in the world.
I remember when I first learned about the size of the Japenese media market (TV, film, music). It is ENORMOUS. I could not understand how, as 99% of Japanese language speakers live in Japan. Then I realised that Japan is highly developed (wealthy) and has a huge internal market of ~120 million people.
I doubt it. You should ask her. If she is 10 years or older, she certainly has some favourites. If she has social media, ask her who she follows. I am sure there are a bunch of actors & actresses in her list. I'm not saying this to pass any judgement on you as a parent. Only that I doubt the authenticity of your statement.
I think you misunderstood GP's point, that it's now the _influencers_ and social media stars who are shaping culture. Not Hollywood or its stars.
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I have no judgement on these models. Everyone can make money through legal means as they deem fit.
But at the same time, the immigration system historically penalized anyone who engages in prostitution and actively denied entry to people found to be engaged in it. There is an explicit question about this in all immigration forms. Which is why it’s surprising that O-1 visas are being awarded to OnlyFans models. Maybe OF isn’t prostitution according to how it’s being interpreted, but it’s very surprising.
If OnlyFans is not prostitution (and in my understanding it is not), then I don't see why it is surprising?
how would it be interpreted as prostitution? the close analogue is porn stars right
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Idk if you mean it literally but conflating the sort of prostitution they ask about on immigration forms with taking naked pictures of yourself seems very wrong.
Why should prostitutes not be allowed to immigrate to the US?
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Disclaimer: I don't mean this comment as an insult to you or anyone else here. It's meant to be slightly tongue in cheek.
I hate to be that person, but the fact that so many people on HN think OF is prostitution is revealing of the site's demographics (i.e. older). It is, as some may put it, boomer thinking.
You're misunderstanding what these people - esports athletes, successful streamers, influencers, OF models etc - actually do. They create and maintain parasocial relationships.
The point isn't just the gameplay or nudes / sex videos or commentary. For e.g., I (and a bunch of other young women for some reason) love to watch Temet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go8EJbNaIHg while working. It's the way they reflect back to their audience and allow them to become a part of their performance.
It's kind of like the place where everyone knows your name? These are digital third places and the content (whether it be neon blue bunny hopping characters or a graphic video of someone having sex) is a mechanism for bonding / a part of the activity. Kind of like the alcohol at the pub, I suppose.
That's where real influence comes from in this age.
If you think OF is prostitution, you're fundamentally misunderstanding what will drive power and culture in this century.
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Man we're making some giant leaps equating early Hollywood talent with a bunch of modern day internet hoes.
Are we? It feels the same just this time you're the old person and it's your turn to disapprove instead of being in the cultural wave.
But influencers are by default distributed and don't really need to be in a single place. Most of their collabs are in luxurious venues around the world (Because we live in a world worshipping rich stuff but that s another matter)
Plus AI porn is already a thing
>These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification.
I'd disagree, six-seven-ification is caused by the human desire for clout and tribal motivations - I'd argue that social currency is the reason people pursue fiat currency; ask yourself this, if I have you $100 billion, but you could not interact with any human beings from then on, would that $100 billion still matter?
Rather than influencers forcing memes, "six-seven-ification" arises organically from the authors' pursuing of belonging/clout within a tribe. What I would say is more interesting is that the lifetime of such cultural outputs is becoming more and more fleeting.
For Millenials & gen X our memes seemed to have quite a bit of permanence over the years. For the boomers and silent generations before us, their cultures were even more static (and traditional) by comparison. For gen z/a it seems their cultural language changes month to month, sometimes week to week.
Memes aren't enjoyed for years now, they're enjoyed for a few months. Horizontally spinning rat, Coffin dance, etc are all ancient history now.
And you can see the reaction to this; there are spikes in search interest on a lot of classic (2005-2015) memes, Gen Z is desperately embracing retro tech like camcorders, polaroids and 90s/00s outfits in a snap back to reality. The gravity of this cannot be understated.
Mom's spaghetti.
All of the exotic acting talent in the world won't save an industry that's forgotten the very basics of how to make a good movie.
The argument from cinema is flaky and a moral critique of Hollywood's influence is unavoidable. But we're talking about porn here, not cinema. This is decadence and depravity. How can you confuse cinema with the construction of an international whoredom? The numbers are also incommensurate.
And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck.
Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society.
This use of O-1 visas is merely another sign of the downward trajectory of our polity. We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly. Perhaps aesthetically, it is fitting that Trump is the poster boy of this abuse of O-1 visas, but he is at best an emanation and a catalyst of broader and deeper social and cultural processes. In the absence of a minimum of sound moral authority, you can expect the poison that lurks in the mud to hatch out and begin to dominate the polis.
>And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck.
My brother, you've just described modern American culture perfectly.
What's the difference between Hollywood popcorn films and corn?
> Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society.
The walls of Pompeii beg to differ.
https://pompeiiarchaeologicalpark.com/social-norms-and-eroti...
https://mariasorensen.substack.com/p/the-forbidden-erotic-ar...
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a627393...
I am sure there would have been people at the time decrying the creation of pigments and paints as the fall of civilization due to "decadence and depravity." Didn't matter much, did it?
> We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly
Plato was a wrestler. Plato would like totally be a gym bro, bro.
It has been a while since I've read Republic, but I remember Book 8 differently. To quote the IEP,
This summary matches my recollection more closely than yours. Could you please quote primary sources on what exactly you mean by "Plato's description of social decline?"
The title is misleading. It says “dominating” however no sources or percentages are provided. And later in the article it only says “increasingly applying”, with just two examples.
I do have a friend (very popular drummer-YouTuber who makes covers, has millions of subs) who did get an O visa because he actually is a, kinda, celebrity, so I guess this is indeed happening occasionally. But nothing is being “dominated” here.
To be clear: TFA is a thinly veiled legal services advertisement ("submarine" in HN parlance), so "dominated" is being used as a hype-generation / reality distortion term.
That said, the reality of today is so-called influencers and OF sex workers are now becoming a relevant fraction of applicants compared to the past where they represented 0%. Is it possible fixating on the word "dominating" a bit overly pedantic?
There is already a lot going on here without pedantry.
I would also note that, even if the title is accurate, and (say) 90% of applications are from social media influencers, it doesn't even make a claim about how many are granted. It could be that countless influencers are applying... and being rejected.
One of my past manager was on a O-1 (in a tech company); he was from india. So, it goes like this, you register to be a presenter in a conference, copy some material from another tech talk and (re-)present it there as a novelty (rince and repeat). Pretty Simple. Step #2, create your facebook, youtube channel (etc.) and buy subscribers (from mediamister.com, getafollower.com, views4you.com, socialwick.com, buzzoid.com, etc) which is perfectly legal; he must have spent 10% of his salary to buy millions of subscribers; and that's how he's been working in tech for the past 10+ years.
Do you have evidence this was true? This sounds like a good story but I thought getting these visas was mostly about revenue receipts, and if he bought a lot of subscribers, they must've been subscribing to something that paid him.
Outside of naming and shaming the guy, what kind of evidence are you asking for?
To my knowledge an O-1 visa isn't about revenue receipts.
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This is just a sad read. And probably worth an in-depth article.
Most of the scientists and engineers I know are on different visas. The US has gained a ton from being largely the cultural center of the world so it's good that there's a visa to take in cultural figures (even if I don't personally connect with influencer culture). As social media is new and fairly spread out, especially compared to traditional recipients like models and actors, it seems really unsurprising they are a ton of these now. I would say the problem is less we are taking in influencers and more we aren't accepting other people.
Immigrants are taking American handjobs!
dude i chuckled really hard on that one, thanks for that
> The O-1 category includes the O-1A, which is designated for individuals with extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business or athletics and the O-1B, reserved for those with “extraordinary ability or achievement”.
> My whole thing is being the funny Jewish girl with big boobs.
The O-1B category is broad because it's mostly entertainment based so there's more squishy room two of the requirements match a Top OF model though.
> Evidence of a record of major commercial or critically acclaimed successes in the performing arts, as shown by box office receipts or record, cassette, compact disk, or video sales
> Evidence of having commanded a high salary or other significantly high remuneration for services in relation to others
A high earning OF model ticks both of those boxes pretty easily. We don't want to put dollar amounts on it to only attract movie stars because other professions don't pay as well would be blocked out and an explicit filter on (heh) explicit O1 visas would be a content based restriction that would (or at least imo should) be a 1A infringement. [0]
https://www.pathlawgroup.com/o1b-visa-requirements/
[0] IMO a 1A restriction to who can come to the country is defacto a restriction on speech in the country.
> My whole thing is being the funny Jewish girl with big boobs.
I thought that was Rachel Bloom.
Is she passing the torch to the next generation?
Anyway, it's not that different from having the extraordinary ability of having hand-eye-coordination on a 7-foot frame.
Actually, it falls under OF-1 visa category.
People are getting hung up on definitions of extraordinary. The thing you need to understand is that US immigration is a political blackhole. The main pathways to immigrate to the US are family, misery (asylum, refugee, tps), or luck (diversity). Employment or economic immigration is frowned upon and visas like H-1B are limited and exploitative and still ultimately politically unpopular as the masses don't want to compete. So, that leaves O-1 as an escape hatch for a basic economic immigration visa that won't rile up the masses. Afterall, a chud does not reasonably believe that an influencer or a pornstar is stealing his job. So it goes.
I wonder how much "OnlyFans models applying for O-1 visas" is just sex trafficking with a thin veneer
O1 would probably want to see a huge number of followers. An OG model with a large following is someone with a huge amount of agency. Probably the highest agency sex worker of them all. Impossible to traffic
I wonder how much of the follower count is addressable. You can call to action for political followers but as a porn actor your values ends where your flesh stops being shown.
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Is an O-1 the "model visa"?
Because OF models are models... so I wonder if model management companies are upset about folks selling content directly to consumers without abusive middle management and drumming up outrage to protect their shitty business model.
Say what you want about sites like OF, but at least the performers get a huge chunk of the earnings.
If you are a professional in a sphere like engineering, then getting eg 10k views on your videos is very remarkable and acts as a indirect proof of acclaim. But when it is the whole metric, then it just overvalues public professions where in itself 10k views is nothing remarkable. That's the core issue as far as I understand.
(But even for professionals, it's a very gameable metric. There is a whole industry that helps getting published material and appearances for O-1 applications.)
Proof of interest, not acclaim. And online interest is heavily skewed to the narrow activities of entertainment and education - professional community communication happens but in far smaller numbers vs the other two.
By 1994, I was in triumphant optimism. I was young-ish, my country was in for its most beautiful decade ever, and the internet seemed to herald a time of final Liberation, with the Earth becoming home to a single, global scientist-philosopher society.
And so, suddenly, we find ourselves mired between traditionalist discomfort and pragmatic acceptance, an unglamorous terminus for earlier dreams of Human synthesis.
Interestingly, the O-1 can also be used for Software Engineers.
Given the amount of unemployed Software Engineers, it makes sense to reduce H1-Bs in that category.
Companies can still hire exceptional people from overseas using this O-1 visa.
How is "extraordinary ability" defined? At what point does an influencer or OF model (or a traditional actor for that matter) have enough "extortionary ability" to get the visa?
Why do they need a visa for remote work?
Because they want to stay longer than tourist visas allow. And because most places (US definitely included) don't let you work remotely on a tourist visa either, with a few exceptions that wouldn't cover them sufficiently.
They wanna taste american life. Reality is gonna hit hard sooner or later
Ok, but who else still want to go to USA lately?
I hope the best for every people out there, including every usa citizen, but money alone won't attract every human profile under the sun, and unleashed imperialism which don't even pretend to export democracy anymore is doing nothing good for the the image of the country I'm afraid.
What a world really! Take care everything, might safety and peace remain on you and your relatives.
It is for this reason I am grateful to be a gen xr. I was at the end of my 20s when social media blew up, so it wasn’t a meaningful part of my personal development. I cannot bring myself to look at IG and the hot mess it serves up daily. A hyper focused lens on the potential of human desperation and stupidity.
I don’t hate on the younger generation, I feel bad they grew up with this shit and try to be a positive influence.
I see people of legit talent from doctors, to chemists and musicians dedicate themselves to posting content. What people don’t understand is survivor bias. For every success story you read about, how many people are going in reverse and not experiencing social mobility (and get depressed from it).
And before that it was DJ's and "Dancers", btw.
How do you know that the followers are not bots? It seems that on platforms with a clear bot problem like X, it would be relatively easy to hit that 1M target if you are willing to pay a bot farm.
America becoming the physical and virtual brothel of the world.
OK I've got to know...which of these does OF fall under
>extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business or athletics
That's for only one of the subtypes of visa. The official site (https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...) mentions a few more options, which would probably turn out to cover onlyfans if you get the right sort of professional advice:
> The O-1 nonimmigrant visa is for the individual who possesses extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics, or who has a demonstrated record of extraordinary achievement in the motion picture or television industry and has been recognized nationally or internationally for those achievements
That's O-1A. O-1B: Individuals with an extraordinary ability in the arts or extraordinary achievement in motion picture or television industry.
I can easily see how 3 of the 4 categories mentioned here could fit.
If you ever get a chance with one of these women you'll learn its all of them
I've seen some bedroom activities that I would definitely categorize as requiring extraordinary athletic abilities...
My guess is business (if they are doing well on the platform)
Has to be athletics right?
Webcam athletics
I mostly don’t care about influencers and OnlyFan, but that… Seems fine to me?
If you managed to amass 1M followers you clearly have strong abilities as an entertainer. The fact that the medium is different than what used to be the norm shouldn’t have an impact.
As a strategy for strengthening our national economy it is great, as a larger cultural/societal marker it is bleak.
Hardly a surprise considering how much more people have entered OF in the last few years.
Celebrities are getting visas instead of celebrities? Ok. I don't see the issue.
just make it $ contingent OF models make ordinary income if someone is pulling in several million USD a year they are going to be paying a ton of taxes here. What is the downside?
Remnants of a late stage empire. The US peaked out over 20 years ago.
true
Good lord at some of these comments. Sex work is work. Stop imposing your personal morals on others. You sound like a bunch of incels.
Whatever the case may be, this has nothing to do with morals, but rather with classification of it as an "extraordinary" ability. Talking about that, instead of seething and name-calling, you could show us your extraordinary ability to go back to Reddit.
I don’t have a Reddit fam, but I’m sorry if you’ve never seen a porn featuring extraordinary abilities.
I agree that sex work is work but it's no extraordinary ability.
You obviously haven’t seen what I’ve seen.
I struggle to understand who pays for OF content and who follows them ? From what I've read 99% of OF is porn in some form or another. So there are millions of people who create accounts and pay for it - linking their personnal info to this thing ?
As for the visa, it's not surprising and obviously idiotic for the society, but from the 'merit' standpoints it feels about right - if somebody has 10M followers, it's not that different from a radio or tv star.
fun-fact: Melania got an "Einstein Visa" shortly after she started dating the president
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43256318
and the owner of the modeling agency she came from "committed suicide" in prison
Says a lot about who actually wants to and is willing to relocate there…
So what does it say about the fact that Europe's immigration is dominated by skill-less and jobless migrants and refugees?
We are all pretty happy!
Also, I’m sorry you think cam girls and people who #ad carbonated water are considered skilled in the context of work and contributing to society meaningfully..
> “I don’t think [people] realize how much work actually goes into it,” she said. “You might not agree with the way the money is being made, or what people are watching, but people are still watching and paying for it.”
The hole-one visa... how fitting.
Good, EU/AU are playing dirty when it comes to the fight between traditional social media. I'm glad the best talent continues to come to America.
Golden age!!
Try now to convince a young person to become a doctor or an engineer, when an OF individual can make in a day what they will make in 40y, assuming they found a job anyway. Idiocracy was a glimpse into the future, not a movie.
That's because you compare a median doctor/engineer with the best OF individuals. Wouldn't you want to compare them with Sergey Brin/Thomas Frist in this case.
Couldn't the same be said of all professions in which some people earn a lot, such as acting, sports, singing, entertainment in general, and which are considered less “serious” than the professions of medical doctor and engineer?
One might say that, in theory, the well-earning actor or actress has to show some craft at least, but there are plenty of actors whose popularity comes only from their looks--my dog would act better than them.
A lot of the youngsters who'd decide to make money undressing themselves on OF will soon realize they might have the will, but they lack the market power.
Oh lovely, we're becoming a Grifters' Republic of Social Media.
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How is this relevant?
Presumably it's a Great Replacement dog whistle and the implication is that OnlyFans is a Jewish conspiracy to make white men impotent and to replace them with a different/preffered demographic. Total antisemitic garbage (and not in the sense that "any criticism of AIPAC is antisemitism," but actual and old school antisemitism).
It's conceivable that that isn't what they mean but I doubt it. Let's just flag that comment and move on, it's flamebait of the worst order.
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"Whoever knowingly transports any individual in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both"
Filming porn isn't prostitution nor a sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense. Hope this helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlbAMdDry4A
The area seems greyer when, as happens in some operations, one person A is getting paid to have sex, and the other person B having the sex is paying person A, even if B is filming the sex and selling the video.
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I think it's naïve to think that these girls are only very strictly selling feet images and are not in the business of having sex for money as well.
Especially when you consider the top-heavy success distribution. Sure there's influencers that have 100M views, but theres thousands of influencers with 300 views, are they going to be just happy with selling pictures for 10 bucks? Or will they follow the whales until they are paid to be flown into the prostitution assembly line, with or without visas.
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You see comrade, the government represents all of us, so when the government deems something beneficial and worth doing we all benefit /s
Me dumping oil on the ground -> bad.
megacorp paying some engineers to make up a number for just how much oil is ok to dump on the ground and paying for government permission -> good
Diddy flying hoes around -> bad
OF models paying the .gov to fly around -> good
(I'm joking here, but not nearly as much as I wish I was)
>OF models paying the .gov to fly around -> good
Yes, with Republican govs, they can pay the government directly for a Golden Visa.
But with Democrat governments it's a bit more fair, they have to pay an immigration lawyer at 300$/hr with John money to get in instead. /s
At least it's better than them going in with a B1 visa and doing whatever.
Sorry for the politics dang.