For an idea as to how this gets translated into the reality on the ground here in Minneapolis this is an article on what’s going on from the main newspaper in the state.
> In the past week alone, ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements from his car, slammed him to the ground and detained him at the Whipple Federal Building near Fort Snelling for 10 hours. A 51-year-old teacher patrolling the Nokomis East community told the Star Tribune she was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn. Officers shattered the car window of a woman attempting to drive past a raid in south Minneapolis to get to a doctor’s appointment nearby, then carried her through the street. Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light into a busy intersection, reportedly fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly” in a crosswalk and shoved Minneapolis City Council President Elliott Payne while he was observing their actions from a public sidewalk.
If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing).
Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How are you not fighting back with more than whistles and blocking them in cars? Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground, but there simply isn't any videos of it, or are people really this passive in the land of the free?
Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside? Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government? I'm really lost trying to understand how the average person (like you reading this) isn't out on the streets trying to defend what I thought your country was all about.
First, all of what you say is true. I'm going to try to add a little context as someone who is here on the ground, in the city in question.
There is the imminent threat of mass death, and no one here is under any illusions about it.
Every ICE agent is armed, and most have ready access to automatic weapons. These are not well-trained members of an elite organization with a storied, patriotic culture. ICE is a personalist paramilitary organization, and the president has indicated that these ICE agents are immune from consequences, even if they kill people. These are people who volunteered knowing they were going to go into American cities and do violence to people they perceive as their political enemies.
Most of these agents are inexperienced, jittery, poorly trained new recruits away from home. They aren't locals. Their nexus of power and governance isn't local. These are not our community members, they aren't from here, they don't know us or care about us, so they do not empathize with us.
In addition to this, the American citizenry is shockingly well armed. Because everyone involved is so well armed, everybody is slightly touchy about this descending into rioting, because there is a very short path from light rioting to what would essentially amount to civil war. The costs of such any such violence will overwhelmingly be borne by the innocent people who live here, and we know it.
So, people are trying to strike a balance of making sure these people know they aren't welcome here while trying to prevent the situation from spiraling into one in which some terrified agent mag-dumps a crowd of protestors and causes a chain reaction that results in truly catastrophic mass death.
I think it's important to realize how divided the U.S. is right now. Half the country is in favor of what ICE is doing in some form or another. Some people on the right are denouncing the _way_ ICE is accomplishing this. But they are far from outraged.
The other half of the country is as dumbfounded/shocked as the rest of the world.
This isn't like the French revolution where a majority of the country was suffering and rose up against the few.
This is very nearly 50% of the country wants to make the other 50% squirm.
It cannot be understated the role that Fox News has played to get us to this level of division.
The channel "The Necessary Conversation" has some good examples of just how radicalized some American's have gotten. It's 2 kids interviewing their MAGA parents. I think it's not uncommon for American's to know people like the parents in this video.
This is anecdotal, America is geographically quite large. For a lot of people, where these events are happening are more than a days drive away (10 hours or more), it's not happening "here".
A lot of people here _enjoy_ the authoritarianism, judging by the votes, the voter turnout, and the private discussions I've had with my neighbors. They believe this is good for the country and that there'll be more opportunities for their kids.
A lot of other people are holding out for the midterm elections, to see if the will of the majority shifts, because otherwise its risks open civil war. And maybe just a touch of American exceptionalism—this can't actually be happening here, it'll all blow over—and distrust in the story that the media is feeding them is accurate.
And some are just fatalistic, this isn't really a surprising turn of events. America has been creeping toward this for more than a few decades, since Regan at the very least.
A broad answer: because America is more violent. The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.
We had nationwide riots for months back in 2020 over a police officer murdering a suspect, and that resulted in approximately zero actual political change. During the recent shutdown over the budget, we had one of the largest protests in the country’s history and massive shifts towards the opposition in elections followed by them immediately folding in exchange for essentially nothing.
The political class is very well insulated from the popular will in this country, and I fear we may be nearing the boiling point.
- The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.
- Lots of people are okay with it because it can only happen to the "bad guys", and why would it ever happen to them since they're the "good guys"... right?
You need to specify what you mean by "more than". Last night ICE agents were attacked with shovels, injuring one. A man was shot.
BEFORE this began we had 7 million people protesting simultaneously nationwide—they are "out on the street" as you put it. With protests around the country every day. Minneapolis has organized hundreds into rapid response teams against ICE. The killings get more news than the protests, particularly as much of the media has been bought up by republican owners. You seem to be missing the news, and saying it does not exist.
In Philadelphia, residents are being filmed patrolling with automatic weapons in advance of ICE supposedly heading there next. Read what @asa400, another local like myself, is saying in another comment to parent.
Many locals on social media are cheering on the shootings. America is incredibly polarized right now. It's not like all the public is against the government. Nearly half of those most likely to vote in past elections support this.
You should read James Baldwin. Or read up on the debates post revolutionary war in the United States about the French revolution.
The truth is the land of the free has always been quite conservative. Which frankly, is true of most societies. In many ways that's what a society is.
Worse still, ICE stomping people out in the street is what freedom means to a vast swath of Americans. The rest are scared and leaderless and let down by an opposition that betrays their trust at every turn.
And yes Europeans keep telling Americans how to protest, but really they are little better. "Far right" candidates are already projecting big wins in the UK today. To say nothing of the victories far right parties have already secured in Europe. Spain is more familiar with blatant facisim and totalitarianism than Americans are. So idk... imo Europeans really pat themselves on the back too much... what would you do?
Provoking a riot is of questionable value anyway when he won a pretty convincing national victory at the polls just a year ago... no one has any answers as far as I can see, only empty expressions of anger... protest harder means what? I think a better start would be a coherent, defensible list of demands than anyone from a governor to a street activist can convey intelligently. Then you can try to enforce it.
But ultimately you can't muster more force than the state. If that is your only suggestion then it's a fruitless one.
Because it’s cold? Here in Minnesota it’s 17F / -7C. Factoring in the wind chill it feels like 7F / -14C.
There are other reasons too of course (geography, lack of urban density, distrust of news, apathy, etc etc) but I think the weather is a definite factor right now.
Americans have had 100 years of stable government and in the past political solutions have eventually been enacted. The Civil Rights bill was passed. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam. I think a lot of people are still expecting sanity to return. I hope they're right.
American here; studied and lived in France and participated in some big protests there. The US just doesn't have the protest/strike culture that Europe has, it's not part of our tradition; the majority of people don't even know how or understand the implications...Also most cities in the US are built for cars , not pedestrians and people on the street.
Yep, in all EU countries, this would lead to country wide protests with the usual result being the fall of the government and new elections. Seems like the US is missing this element of democracy.
Americans are not passive. Look at the videos of any of these incidents. People are supporting those under attack, collecting evidence, and protesting. The message is clear.
Peaceful protest is the key. Riots, violence, and fighting are not peaceful and only play into the administration's aims.
When Americans resist and protest peacefully, as they have been in the largest numbers ever in the country's history, it exposes the brutality and baseness of those commiting the heinous acts.
Through such peaceful protest as we see, America will overcome this.
The big question is, what next? How to hold people accountable, fairly, while rebuilding the system and rebuilding trust?
spain isn’t a great example here. it has some of the most racist fans football has ever seen and yet there’s no action. only italy probably compares. if there was a government agency going after black and brown people (ie non-white) i wouldn’t bet on the spanish population to come to their rescue. lamine yamal, a young footballer of moroccan descent hasn’t been spared the vitriol of the spanish hooligans even though he was top 3 best player at the recent euro (where he helped spain to victory).
point being, given that ice is going after non-whites and is getting by, a spanish ice will get by too, with probably more ease.
You're just describing a recipe for agents opening fire into a crowd. The opposition is doing it right: demonstrate to ICE that they're nonviolent, well coordinated, and much more numerous.
If violence is warranted, the time and place for it is not when they're all together, armed to the teeth, and looking for a fight. It's when they're off duty, alone, and not expecting a confrontation.
I remember 5 years ago americans said same things about russian civil unrest. No grand penalty for violent rioting, you can get off with just prison time!
There is a vast difference between believing that your nation would riot hard and having to risk your own life knowing that your loved ones that would be devastated if something happens.
I think it's something different than "Americans are passive" - rather, many of them/us perceive the context of what you're seeing very differently. I can share some of this perspective though I don't insist it's the only way to feel.
1. Americans on the ground are clearly feeling the effects of illegal immigration. As an example: a an African American janitor in our kids' school voted republican in 2024 for the first time in his life, because the park in his Brooklyn neighborhood has become a shanty town and he can't work out there. In that election we've seen nearly every demographic move more republican than before, and I think this is the key issue for them.
2. In that context, when ICE does something, even when we don't like it, people can understand it in the context of a larger problem they/we want solved. When you perceive "passivity" - it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved which is fine, but it's different for people who like "what" is happening even if not "how" it's happening.
3. There are plenty of people protesting and violently rioting if that's what they feel like.
> Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots?
In the same place. You just aren't seeing footage of them on HN.
> Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground
There is, and there is lots of video of it. You only need search elsewhere.
I have seen such footage. It's all over the place. I've cited examples of what I've seen in other comments. You can infer keyword search terms from the descriptions and should be able to find them readily with any search engine.
> Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government?
They are not "extra-judicial murders". The only people who have died so far have been those whose actions presented a serious threat to the life or safety of federal officers.
Anyone who disagrees with my claim is welcome to provide contradictory evidence.
To be fair, Minneapolis is raising hell and has been for the last week. There have been many protests in other cities as well.
I would also say that Trump and his cronies would absolutely love if this boils over into a violent riot. That would give them permission to double down.
Isn't the same true of in the EU though? Immigrants and refugees from Syria were treated quite harshly and has led to a significant rise in far right parties across Europe. These parties are actively harassing immigrants and non-white groups. But there doesn't seem to be riots in the streets over it.
It's almost flipped how the US and Europe have dealt with threats. The US has a long history of organized hate groups having the run of things. I don't Europe has experienced anything like the KKK for as long. However Europe is not far removed from fascist and authoritarian regimes. So things are more fresh in the minds of citizens and they are more likely to fight them. However when attacked through another method it subverts that and allows tacit approval from the public while their neighborhoods are transformed for the worse.
Americans aren't passive: we actively did this. The rioters are in the masks and uniforms. We went so far out of our way to arrive at this godforsaken idiot collapse.
Minneapolis mayor told protestors to remain peaceful. The Democrats always want to follow the rules even when the other side has abandoned them. To be fair to Mayor Frye though, Trump wants to provoke rioting to invoke the Insurrection Act, which he threatened to do today if the Democratic officials don't "fall in line". So there is that.
Not attacking you OP, but oh look, the top comment again concern trolling the topic to something else less inconvenient. It's wild how common that is on HN.
Basically we Americans have given up on our system. Both on the left and the right. It's why the right elected Trump, and it's why the left silently elected Trump by not voting.
Decades of copaganda paired with police brutality. A fairly large portion of americans view anyone with a badge as "the good guy" by default.
But, I think people are also fearful about what happens after the riots start. Nobody is excited about Trump using a riot as an excuse to declare martial law and deploy the military everywhere. There's still some hope that cities and states will step up and do their job. These ICE agents can and should be prosecuted.
> Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside?
They aren't. And unfortunately a LOT of US media is sanewashing. We have dedicated channels like fox news which are basically framing everything as "violent protesters attacking the police for trying to arrest bad guys". But even centrist and slightly left mainstream media is bending over backwards to give excuses and "both sides" this. Doing things like using a lot of passive language or just not reporting on the raids all together. You basically need to be online or tuned in to alternative media to learn about this stuff.
There's also the very simple and real fact that fascists already have the power. People are scared. There's about 30% of the citizenship who could literally drive a car through a protest or open up fire who'd be completely protected by the state for those actions. Most of the people that'd do that are already employed by ICE.
There are a lot of differences. Americans are not being passive. For one thing, reasonable or not there is still a lot of faith in the election process and many are expecting all this craziness will put Republicans on a back seat for decades. For another, these ICE groups are well armed and operate in numbers. Many Americans are also armed and have deep misgivings about political violence and where this is headed. Where you see "passive" many of us see "knife edge". Also, many live staying busy and near exhaustion to start with and have trouble coming to grips with just how bad this is as no one has ever shown this much contempt for laws without consequences. There is an expectation that the constitution will hold any test. And those following closely understand that just about everything Trump has done including tariffs are illegal and the courts are closing in.
Worth mentioning that America does not have a protest culture like Europe. Being largely rural makes gathering for political expression impractical, and in this particular case Trump and his militias are deliberately trying to stir up chaos in order to rationalize cranking up the pressure. Protests make noise and get you targeted but what is needed now is real change.
man honestly all this stuff pisses me off but I'm just trying to survive over here in my own life. Got friends from all over but no one is really ready to put their life on the line. Like, most disagree with Trump's agenda, many find it offensive, but bottom line is staying healthy, finding work, paying bills, taking care of ppl immediately around you is more important.
Truth is, lots of Americans are really divorced from the reality undocumented immigrants are facing right now. Lots of immigrants from 10-15+ years ago aren't worried if they are law abiding (anecdotal). The online rhetoric rly doesn't match daily life in my most places aside from the active hotbeds.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
A pervasive "Someone needs to do something!!!" attitude is why. Americans will forever wait for the school principal to come and get everyone into trouble
Some folks have observed that the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and other established far-right groups aren't marching as much recently:
> “How many pardoned January 6th insurrectionists have been hired by your respective departments?” Raskin (D-Md.), ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, asked the two officials [Bondi and Noem].
Police don't deserve "respect" for being police. They don't get to shoot or brutalize people for "disrespecting" them. They are servants of the people and should humble themselves appropriately and act with that consciousness, not act as though they are noble beings superior to other men, not beholden to earthly law.
Why should civilians respect federal LEOs when they detain citizens, who have committed no crimes, under the pretense of immigration enforcement? Why does the lack of respect for LEOs justify beating non-violent civilians, smashing into their cars, randomly shooting pepper spray and tear gas, and raiding homes without a warrant?
The perspective that is constantly missing from these one-sided ICE threads on HN and Reddit (but often exposed in videos after the fact): What are the civilians/protesters actually doing in these situations?
This kind of "I'm a sovereign citizen, you can't touch me" behavior used to be rightfully belittled by the same crowd only a few years ago.
A person who believes the above examples should try to find the videos or other details of each case in order to be sure they are being told the truth.
Assuming that the “carried the woman through the street” is the same case as the video I watched, she was clearly deliberately obstructing traffic, as she wasn’t continuing to drive down the street despite the road being clear with no vehicles ahead of her. She then is removed from the car by force and refuses to move, requiring her to be carried.
I’m here in the ground, I’ve seen them detain people for no cause. Masked agents grabbing guys out of a Home Depot parking lot and throwing them in a van only to drop them off later after scaring them. No charges.
Maybe you’ll be lucky enough to get picked up so you can get your proof.
> she was clearly deliberately obstructing traffic,
You are lying. She waited for the pedestrian to cross.
Also, obstructing traffic is not valid reason to be violent against someone. ICE or cops being violent in that situation is them abusing their power big time. So, again, we are back to Brownshirts comparison.
It's bizarre to me that your comment was flagged and killed (here's a vouch). You see what you see in the video. There is nothing about your comment that violates HN guidelines. On the other hand, rhetoric about "lying" and "fascist assholes" is clearly not in the spirit of constructive dialog.
Other people here seem to think that "obstructing" something entails making it impossible to get around. That is just... not how that language ordinarily works. They also misrepresent your argument, skipping all the steps in between, as if you were asserting that people are being shot directly as a punishment for obstructing traffic. That's clearly not what anyone is saying or justifying, including the officers themselves.
- ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements
- She was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn
- A woman attempting to drive past a raid
- Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light
- Fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly”
Where does the Palantir app come into any of these stories?
If you work for Palantir and if you work on these systems: You have blood on your hands. You know that it's not right what is happening on the ground right now. Do something.
> 3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.
i feel like a broken record: anyone with a resume good enough for Palantir would have no problem finding work for another company/public sector employer. but they stay.
I don’t think it’s really this simple. Palantir is a major government contractor that enables it to be more tech savvy. It’s embedded through hundreds of teams / agencies. You can’t remain a credible partner if you play morality police on every workflow. Palantir has worked through multiple administrations of both parties and have to support whoever is in power to have a seat at the table.
Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?
Otherwise you can agree or disagree with government policies, but that shouldn’t be directed at tech vendors, it should be directed at politicians and people in government / at the voting booth.
You forgot another point--or it could be related to #3: off-shoring and H1B. Many people are just working the job and working on a small piece of software where they don't know or care about the ramification of project. They're getting paid and even if they know what's happening, they're not incentivized to care about what happens in America.
Yes, Palantir folks have self selected for the first two over and over - anyone working there for many years now is completely blacklisted from anything I touch, when someone advertises ex-Palantir folks in the job description I know I can safely avoid that company forever.
In a thread last year a Palantir employee said most of them were either Indian, East Asians, or laid off and/or unemployable White males. Good luck guilt-tripping any of them.
Note: I'm not American, nor White/WASP, nor Asian.
Palantir does not work in a vacuum - it requires other technology, platforms and systems to operate and succeed - many of which are designed and maintained by the users of Hacker News.
Certainly you must be aware that there are not just binary values of morality in life. The obvious answer is yes they are stained, as we all are through our participation in various systems, but with vastly varying amounts.
Is the manufacturer of the bomb responsible for when Israel drops it on a family home in Gaza? Yes. Is it the same responsibility as the general who gave the order? No. Is it the same as the pilot who followed the order? No.
Does that make it useless to hold people accountable? Of course not.
Palantir is built explicitly for surveillance, in a way the other companies you listed are not. There is no comparison here. It's like saying the City of Minneapolis is complicit because they maintain the roads ICE is driving on.
Yes, this is how market economy works. For every organization doing horrible things, literally everyone is a small number of payment-handshakes from it.
No, it doesn't mean that "mr gotcha"[1] argument is valid. You don't have to isolate yourself from society Kaczynski-style to either criticize society or to do something smaller (like choosing who you work for).
> If you work in technology, you are part of this force, whether you like it or not.
Disappointing to see you downvoted. I agree with this partially, but only because I think it applies more broadly.
I work in tech (although not in Big Tech/Mag 7/FAANG/whatever they're called now), and I feel quite acutely that anyone in the field is culpable in part for the enabling the absolutely massive dump that the capital-adjacent class is taking on the world to have their power play fantasies play out.
To the extent that I've started apologising on behalf of the field/profession to non-technical folks when they complain about yet another dark pattern/"growth hack" designed to steal their attention and money.
A Palantir rep was supporting one of our exercises late last summer, and he said "Knowing what I know about how the military is going all-in on Maven....I recommend buying Palantir stock."
I picked up a few shares, but I haven't checked if Palantir's growth has been unique or part of a general military-industrial complex melt-up.
The US gov (including ICE) uses all of Microsoft Office for coordination and planning: email, spreadsheets, powerpoint, document generation, etc. Would you say Microsoft employees have blood on their hands too? If not, what makes Microsoft different?
> Palantir is working on a tool for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that populates a map with potential deportation targets, brings up a dossier on each person, and provides a “confidence score” on the person’s current address
So essentially, the relevant app here is custom built in order to help ICE raids.
That's substantially different from generic office tech where ICE happen to be one of millions of users.
Considering that Microsoft is also providing services to the Israeli government with the explicit intent of storing and cataloging all of the phone calls made by Palestinian citizens so that they can be analyzed by AI for potential bombing targets...yes I would say Microsoft also has blood on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have deep partnerships with Palantir for compute services.
Microsoft is a modern IBM holocaust tabulation machine. Yes, many of the people who work for Microsoft should be prosecuted and put in prison for war crimes, with varying degrees of culpability. There are people in MS who knowing negotiated deals that aided and abetted war crimes, and those who wrote morally repugnant military surveillance software that was used to automate mass murder in the Gaza holocaust.
Yes, absolutely. These are criminal scum, on par with pedos. Just look at how they are helping a people getting wiped out from their own territory in the Middle East.
That's a pretty broad generalization, but OK I'll bite.
- I think Yarvin has a lot of good points. No one should be ashamed to admit the truth of a matter. I can't stand his voice, I think he has annoying mannerisms, but nonetheless the man has a point and I'm not ashamed (especially by unknown and strange online personas) to say so.
- Palantir is objectively a profitable job. I've learned a lot here and the people I work with are brilliant.
- I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.
Let's be honest, simply conjecturing that someone ascribes to a political view isn't discourse. It's a potshot. You're assuming that anyone who reads your comment and leans in your direction is going to agree and vote with you. This is literally the lowest and cheapest form of engagement. It's also the most self serving. It does nothing to advance the conversation or prove your point.
Most importantly, this is the exact type of behavior that is furthering political polarization and discouraging actual discourse.
1. He's white and lives in a blue state. Doesn't affect him. Oh, and money.
2. The attention on Palantir and their customers makes his stock and options go up. He's happy, because money.
3. His GOP-worshipping parents get to brag to their GOP-worshipping friends that their son is helping God's Gift to Humanity - Donald Trump. And making bank while doing it.
4. He believes that Palantir is doing good work, and that's the end of it. He believes himself to be a genuinely good guy, so if he's doing something, it must be good.
In general, if you're working for Palantir, you're unlikely to find yourself in the right side of history. Whenever you hear of tech being used for questionable purposes, Palantir seems to have their fingers deep in the pie.
I wonder how he feels about what the administration is doing and how his own work is directly helping them. Surely he is aware of all of the supremacist rhetoric coming from the official Twitter accounts of various government agencies or Elon Musk or Stephen Miller. Surely he has seen the kind of racist abuse that Vivek Ramaswami endured on Twitter, which led to him recently quitting social media.
Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?
Meh, I blame social media specifically and media generally for the state of our country. Why call out just Palantir. The US, maybe the world, would be better off if companies like Meta (and others) didn't exist....
You don't seem to disagree with parent, and as long as you're aware you have blood on your hands, I guess cool?
Why try to inflame the conversation even more? Just curious what you get out of it, because you're clearly not curious, or trying to understand something here.
Wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that the people who allowed or even encouraged illegal immigration have blood on their hands because they know what they were doing and how the government would have to respond under the law? If we are going to use the line of reasoning you suggest then this should easily be on the table also.
People like... Donald Trump, prominent employer of illegal labor for decades?
If you want to go after prominent employers of illegal labor (and others who profit from it) I shan't shed a tear. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening.
I've been on the receiving end of federal enforcement (DOJ, high-profile "cybercrime"). When they want you, they don't need a confidence score. There is no quota—they take time to build a case. The existence of these tools tells you this isn't targeted enforcement, it's industrial-scale population processing dressed up in an algorithm.
The Palantro CEO, Alex Karp, is on the record that he approves of what the president is doing in regards to immigration enforcement and the striking of boats in international waters.
And in 2016 he was a Clinton supporter and a self described progressive. Vance was also a never trumper by his own admission.
It’s quite clear to me that these elites are just grabbing power by any means necessary. It won’t end after Trump. He’s just providing the cover in the current moment.
Amazing. I have a hard time believing that comment isn't sarcastic, its just too perfect. Its hard to tell these days
If its not, it sounds like the output of an LLM if prompted "You are a toddler. Write the most naive and illogical ideological propaganda possible. Offer no rational justification for your thoughts"
> And ppl were worried about China's 1984 style use of Ai, lol.
Came here to say the same...
> In the end it was greedy software developers that enable this.
Nope. First is a failing govt system (not upholding the constitution) that's enabling this.
Second it's not the devs but the business men (that are so much in bed in govt that they have become indistinguishable).
Look, there are software devs (and probably business men) that are equally greedy in, say, Finland/Iceland/etc. But it's not happening there: they simply have a govt that's better for the people at large.
GP didn't say greedy devs caused it, they (we?) are only enabling it.
Obviously there's always the cop out of "someone else would have done it anyway" but it doesn't really change the (un-)ethical side of your choices. I'm not saying it's black and white either - if the other choice is to leave your kids without proper medical care then it's a different thing than just being intentionally blind to ethics.
This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule enabling people to hide and avoid being confronted with the ramifications of their actions.
The entire world runs on technology now. It's all inherently political.
I'm going to defend the HN "no politics" rule here.
The reason "no politics" zones exist is because there are enough people going out of their way to shout at everybody, everywhere, in every corner of the internet and enough people are tired of it that they flock to...no politics zones. In real life, a person like that confronts you...you remove yourself from the situation, because that person who can't stop shouting at everybody comes across as nuts.
Yes, HN is my safe space. I have enough politics in my daily life, I don't need it when I'm with phone in my bed trying to wind down.
And which politics? American internal politics are foreign and distant to me. How much do you care about my country internal affairs? Probably not much. And it's OK, you can't fix every country in existence, and if you tried to care you would get insane.
You can see in this threat that confronting people with the ramifications of their actions causes them to double down. They'll just come up with more and more justifications of why the victims deserve it. Same as every mass atrocity.
I don't think you can really blame HN specifically here. It's much wider than that; pretty much the tech industry as a whole actively discourages any kind of philosophical reflection on technology, at least the kind that says you shouldn't build something, even if it's profitable.
> This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule
HN does not have, and never has had (except for a very brief experiment that failed spectacularly and was very quickly aborted) a “no politics” rule, and, in fact, politics is usually all over the site.
This exactly hits in on the head. You're trying create a forum absent of politics. In fact, you're just enabling one political view over another. This hides social issues and in the end comes back to undermine your pure "technical view". It's not apolitical, it's disassociation from reality.
There have been some insane politics (especially "culture war" stuff) that got laundered through the HN "reasonable discussion" filter, especially from 2021 through 2024. They still come up all the time. HN loves talking about politics when the commenters can get critical mass to grind the libertarian or "anti-woke" axe.
Not to mention every leader of YCombinator has had some kind of wild politics that come from having money that separates you from any kind of consequence.
Worth reminding everyone in the EU and UK that this is not a 'them' problem.
Palantir is the main software vendor for Europol. Equally pretty much all the 1984 proposals for age or id online verification that are being massaged into existence (both in the UK and pushed by the European Commission) have their fingers all over them.
They sell pre-crime and opinion control to our democratic leaders and apparently everyone in Davos loves it.
For some reasons I think europol officers (the ones taking decisions, at least) are loving ice. They didn't have issues when proposing to expand chat control, which would meant large scale surveillance, so they'd appreciate whatever palantir can come out with
Great time to bring up the Imperial Boomerang[1]. My paraphrasing: the weapons and technology that imperial and colonial powers develop or use to control subjugated populations will inevitably be used to also control its own population.
A decent chunk of people on that list are working at the companies that are actively harming society. At what point does it become a joke? It's not like the millionaire devs working at big tech couldn't take a stand, but I guess their addiction to money is more preferential than sacrificing something to better society.
I have never heard of this site but find it confusing that there is no information on the date this was started or which administration they are referring to.
I am all for criticizing and pointing fingers at trump and this entire administration.
But it does say they have been working with ICE for “years” in the article. What is not really clear to me is was the app made worse recently, was it originally commissioned under trump?
Nothing about that changes that they should not be working with ICE and they deserve any pressure they get to cut ties. But there is some history here I am very curious about.
All of that being said, I am concerned about how this will be turned around and used in more than just ICE and targeting everyone. Especially since we can be sure this will be used in largely blue big cities.
They've definitely using tools like this for a while. It's been true under all administrations, and it's always been a problem. Privacy advocates have been alerting on this for a while.
Physically attacking citizens takes it to another level.
It's one thing for tech companies to be complicit in eroding privacy, it's quite another to be complicit in overt fascism.
> is not really clear to me is was the app made worse recently, was it originally commissioned under trump?
I think it's pretty clear that we've slidden into this situation for years.
This is what privacy advocates have been shouting about a long time. When the systems are in place all you need is a trigger for everything to go to hell.
We get absolutely nowhere if we just blindly blame trump for everything. All it does is give the other side ammunication to paint us as just “anti trump” when they can poke holes in our information. We have to be better than them.
We have to have all of the information and actually inform people instead of the half and twisted “truths” that is all that ever spew from this administration.
It doesn’t change or diminish what is going on right now, but it changes some of the conversation around this particular contract.
I guarantee you that if this contract started under the Obama or Biden administration and we just conveniently ignore that, it will come back and bite us in the ass. This app existing before this administration, what form did it exist, and how much use did it get is critical information.
Reading comment sections for news like this makes one understand better how it is possible that widescale horrible things happen.
At first you'll learn about something horrible in the past and think, How could people let that happen, yet alone participate in it? Well, its spelled out pretty neatly here.
Some people don't care - its "them" being targeted (jews, tutsi, immigrants), not "us". Some people care, but not in the way you'd think - they agree with the actions. Some people just wash their hands - I was only following orders, I was only working for Palantir. Some will be dismissive or downplay what is happening: its no big deal, its overblown, its being exaggerated and distorted by Radical Left-Wing Terrorists™.
I have a message to all Palantir employees. You can quit, you don't have to make this technology. Palantir cannot function without you.
Let me tell you a story. When I was young, just out of college, I worked for a tech startup. The tech startup was a mapping company. At some point I overheard the company CEO talking about how the software I built was being used. I thought it was being used to help track miners and equipment working in mines so that if there is an accident, they know where all the people and equipment are so they can be saved.
I learned by overhearing him that the software was being used in the Iraq war to track people to kill. I wasn't supposed to know since I didn't have a security clearance to know.
I quit that job over this.
I told this story because there are certainly employees there that don't have the clearance to know what is happening. But the reporting is making it clear. You can quit your job. They can't function without you.
Per the WSJ, as of January 10th this year, ICE has identified 13 instances of agents firing at or into civilian vehicles, leaving eight people shot with two confirmed dead. Five of those shot were citizens. According to court records, only one of these civilians was armed and never drew his weapon.
There is a sickness curdling in the dark corners of Silicon Valley. These people need to be humiliated for being the sniveling, authoritarian toads that they are.
There are reports that ICE threw a flash bang into a vehicle last night that contained a father trying to leave with his children to get them to safety.
I remember hearing the "imagine if Stasi/Gestapo had the data Facebook and Twitter have on us" argument for years. Turns out they were right to be worried.
Why would you think they wouldn't be right? Even on paper, doesn't that sound like a bad thing?
the past 15 years of my life feels like a bus full of people yelling at the driver to not hit the wall he's speeding towards and he's just ignoring them saying "it will be fine." and here we are!
Can someone tell me three things, please!
- is ICE illegal or immoral ? Or it is a good tool used wrong ?
- can people vote and make ICE stronger / weaker depending on their choice ?
- are non registered people breaking the law or not ? Is it basically bad law or bad people ?
I am sure US is republic and democracy together, but everyone here pretends ICE is a tool of dictatorship and should be stopped immediately.
If you ask about my personal opinion - it is an internal problem of US citizens, and they need to fix it.
This. ICE serves a necessary function. It is intentionally being wielded with malice. The target is not immigrants, they are just the face of the brawl, the real target is democratic voters.
> can people vote and make ICE stronger / weaker depending on their choice
This question is easy to answer. The citizens could easily vote in a new president in 2028 who defunded ICE altogether. We already know that cutting funds is way easier than granting them.
>The citizens could easily vote in a new president in 2028 who defunded ICE altogether.
You think that after two more years of this regime that any such candidate would be allowed anywhere near whatever pretense of an electoral system still exists?
I need you to understand that the United States is already no longer a democratic republic in anything but name. The system of government you're assuming will fix the mess will have been entirely dismantled by then. The time to fix this within the system was in 2024.
Some states also have a “state defense force” which is explicitly under the control of the state. But they tend to be pretty small I think, and lots of them are inactive or purely ceremonial.
> Approximately 4,000 NYPD officers took part in a protest that included blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge and jumping over police barricades in an attempt to rush City Hall.
> The ACLU obtained a court order prohibiting strikers from carrying their service revolvers. Again, the SFPD ignored the court order. On August 20, a bomb detonated at the Mayor's home with a sign reading "Don't Threaten Us" left on his lawn.
> Among the hundreds of protesters arrested over the four days of demonstrations in New York City over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, only one was highlighted by name by a police union known for its hostility toward Mayor Bill de Blasio. The name of that protester? Chiara de Blasio, the mayor’s daughter.
Here's an example. One of my friends works for a manufacturing company. He attended a protest. The next day ICE called his employer and he was informed that if he attended another protest he would be fired. All this b/c he had a small company logo on his jacket.
The ability to en-mass record, lookup and intimidate citizens is unprecedented and while I have no hard proof that this is due to Palantir, it sure smells like it
My understanding (and I couldn't get past the app paywall) is that Palantir is joining databases from many different federal and state agencies, including passport and driver license photos. The app then allows you to scan a phase and it finds a match. It returns information on the person found, including citizenship.
The existence of this technology means that ICE can grab anyone they want, scan their face, and instantly have (or not have) probable cause to arrest them. Without the app, there would be hours before probably cause could be established which makes justifying the detainment legally much harder. I.e without the app, ICE has to actually build a case or see something suspicious for each target. With the app, ICE can just mass sweep people.
Which should be illegal, but thanks to the shadow docket order on Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo, is happening anyway.
CBP has been taking photos of all legitimate foreign visitors to the US for over 20 years. I presume any catch-and-release border apprehensions are subject to the same photographs.
How hard is it to do facial recognition on just this dataset in real-time?
> “Enhanced Leads Identification & Targeting for Enforcement (ELITE) is a targeting tool designed to improve capabilities for identifying and prioritizing high-value targets
What constitutes this "high value"? & valuable to who, ICE agents with an itchy trigger finger?
Does anyone else think that the biggest reason for ICE and the National Guard deployments is to normalise such situations?
It seems most likely to me this is being done in preparation for the ending of democracy. If the midterms become mired in controversy, for example, there will be protests on the streets. And these deployments will be ready to crush dissent. This is why deployments are mostly focused on the likely flashpoints.
Make no mistake, the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota are only a training ground for how to undermine civil rights for us all. Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality. But eventually these same tools will be used against us.
> Everyone is ok targeting the immigrant populations
To echo another commentor, we're not. And even if we were, this is not how it should be done. Enforcing the laws is one thing, but we have to have due process. Without due process, we have no rights.
Due process for EVERY person in the legal territory regardless of who or what they are. Otherwise it's way to easy to say, "they're the other, and have no rights", and they are already using this line.
I meant "we" in the sense that our country has yet to put an end to it and there is still a majority of people either actively in support of ICE or remaining silent.
Current ICE/Homeland Security actions are unambiguously illegal.
The problem is that without an independent congress the US system is able to descend into authoritarianism. The court has (reasonably) decided that on many broad issues regarding presidential actions and abuse of authority only congress (via impeachment and removal) is able to constrain the president.
The current congressional majority has, for now, decided to allow the president to do almost anything he wants, regardless of the law and constitution.
Along the same lines, anyone who thinks this is just about immigration should ask themselves what all these tens of thousands of ICE agents are going to do when all the immigrants are finally deported.
Are they just going to go home and go back to their old jobs? Or do you think the Administration is going to find something else for them to do.
Deportations aren’t all that high. The raids are theater.
Thinking that they’re going to deport all the immigrants isn’t realistic or supported by the numbers. Immigration control is a constant ongoing operation in every country. This administration is just making a big show out of it for political points.
>the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota
If you think this is only immigration enforcement you haven't been paying attention. That was ostensibly what Trump campaigned on. That is not what is happening in Minnesota and other previously safe places. What is happening is a massive terror campaign against all US citizens who don't happen to be the right color. And increasing, against everyone.
I have a hunch most people recognize this, but many are ok with it. I have hope (But not confidence) people will see this in the upcoming US elections and more broadly. This is transparent authoritarian behavior.
Edit: Challenge: If you downvoted the parent post here (It's currently grey), I would love to hear why you think this doesn't match the pattern. Are you living in the US? I in general am struggling to understand my fellow US citizens, given the history of our nation.
I expect masked ICE agents to be deployed to polls in purple and blue states to "prevent non-citizens from voting" (i.e. to scare minorities away from polls)
I would start with this, because it's a flat out lie
> Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality.
People have been complaining about the attack on immigrants for a good, long while. And the complaining has been getting louder, more frequent, and from more people with every day. When they kidnapped workers and suddenly the price of everything went up, there was a lot of "see?!? this is what we're talking about"
So no, "everyone" isn't ok with the targeting of immigrants.
If it is this tweet you are referring to, it's about _teaching_ hate, which is only a slight nuance and still a terrible point to make for a self-labeled "free speech absolutist"
> Teaching people to hate America fundamentally destroys patriotism and the desire to defend our country.
> Such teachings should be viewed as treason and those who do it imprisoned.
Palestine was the training ground, now it is being deployed back at home. Turns out it is a small world and you shouldn't have selective empathy.
"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"
There's a clear difference in the premises behind the thinking of the "right" vs. the "left". One side sees "evil officers acting too aggressively towards fellow humans", and the other side sees "patriotic police catching criminal aliens, and leftists attacking the police".
To the eventual detriment of the latter, I expect. There are plenty of people currently on the "evil officers" side who would be much more willing to support the mass deportation effort if the ICE officers were calm, unmasked, not using violent SWAT tactics just to apprehend an undocumented immigrant. This intentional violence turns away a lot of people who'd otherwise be sympathetic to the goals.
Well the idea is that you grab brown people en masse and then scan them with the app. In fact the entire point of the app is to enable grabbing brown people en masse, so it's probably looking pretty good to Noem and the like.
It's crazy that anybody who has read books could learn about the company "Palantir," know where the name comes from, and join it thinking it's anything other than evil.
The thing is, I know palantir engineers are well paid. Money warps people's brains. It's much easier enable evil if you can go back to a home you own in Silicon Valley.
I've lost count of people who have read Tolkien's work and never dug deeper than "cool fantasy story" level. I was no different when I read the Lord of the Rings as a teenager. Unlike C. S. Lewis, Tolkien does not shove his message down your throat.
No one ever joined palantir thinking they were a good person. You join palantir because you've done enough drugs to believe that "good" and "evil" don't exist and you've "evolved" beyond that. You know, sociopaths.
Every single engineer who works on this should be in prison for life. Nuremberg trials are coming. Be careful associating yourself with techno-fascists, history will not forget your git commits on evil technologies.
I remember in the 2010s when Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place, and now it's just fascists who want to use technology to kill brown people more efficiently
> Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place
No, it wasn't, it was full of people who said they wanted to use technology to make the world a better place because saying you would use technology to make the world a better place was viewed as the path to investment and success.
Now, as soon as feigned empathy is no longer required for $$$, the mask comes off. It was never about anything other than profit.
This take is so wrong it qualifies as delusional. The valley was all about money and nothing but money by any means by no later 1996 when the dotcom got under way. In 2001 I was at a company actively engaging in meetings with a certain three letter agency wanted us to build a secret project to tap oc192 cables at various service providers while talking about how the internet was bringing freedom and openness to society.
SV was always full of limp wristed callous nerds who hate those they consider to be beneath them. Back them they called themselves libertarians or ancaps or something along those lines, but fundamentally nothing has changed.
> Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
> That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.
What did the 170 citizens detained in immigration raids last year do that was illegal?
If it was illegal, why were charges either dropped or never filed to begin with for the majority of these cases?
If you are open to understanding why people are so upset, do your mind the favor of reading this high quality reporting on the treatment of US Citizens by ICE
If they were only arresting people not in the country illegally and doing it with constitutionally guaranteed due process then you may have a point. But they aren't. They are arresting, injuring, killing people who are exercising their constitutional rights. ICE has no shred of credibility left. They are not making things safer.
I personally know people in Minneapolis (where I live) who's constitutional rights have been trampled on by ICE. ICE is the enemy, all who support them have blood on their hands.
For an idea as to how this gets translated into the reality on the ground here in Minneapolis this is an article on what’s going on from the main newspaper in the state.
> In the past week alone, ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements from his car, slammed him to the ground and detained him at the Whipple Federal Building near Fort Snelling for 10 hours. A 51-year-old teacher patrolling the Nokomis East community told the Star Tribune she was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn. Officers shattered the car window of a woman attempting to drive past a raid in south Minneapolis to get to a doctor’s appointment nearby, then carried her through the street. Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light into a busy intersection, reportedly fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly” in a crosswalk and shoved Minneapolis City Council President Elliott Payne while he was observing their actions from a public sidewalk.
You can read the full thing here: https://www.startribune.com/have-yall-not-learned-federal-ag...
If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing).
Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How are you not fighting back with more than whistles and blocking them in cars? Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground, but there simply isn't any videos of it, or are people really this passive in the land of the free?
Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside? Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government? I'm really lost trying to understand how the average person (like you reading this) isn't out on the streets trying to defend what I thought your country was all about.
First, all of what you say is true. I'm going to try to add a little context as someone who is here on the ground, in the city in question.
There is the imminent threat of mass death, and no one here is under any illusions about it.
Every ICE agent is armed, and most have ready access to automatic weapons. These are not well-trained members of an elite organization with a storied, patriotic culture. ICE is a personalist paramilitary organization, and the president has indicated that these ICE agents are immune from consequences, even if they kill people. These are people who volunteered knowing they were going to go into American cities and do violence to people they perceive as their political enemies.
Most of these agents are inexperienced, jittery, poorly trained new recruits away from home. They aren't locals. Their nexus of power and governance isn't local. These are not our community members, they aren't from here, they don't know us or care about us, so they do not empathize with us.
In addition to this, the American citizenry is shockingly well armed. Because everyone involved is so well armed, everybody is slightly touchy about this descending into rioting, because there is a very short path from light rioting to what would essentially amount to civil war. The costs of such any such violence will overwhelmingly be borne by the innocent people who live here, and we know it.
So, people are trying to strike a balance of making sure these people know they aren't welcome here while trying to prevent the situation from spiraling into one in which some terrified agent mag-dumps a crowd of protestors and causes a chain reaction that results in truly catastrophic mass death.
Wish us luck, we're trying.
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> Why are Americans so passive?
I think it's important to realize how divided the U.S. is right now. Half the country is in favor of what ICE is doing in some form or another. Some people on the right are denouncing the _way_ ICE is accomplishing this. But they are far from outraged.
The other half of the country is as dumbfounded/shocked as the rest of the world.
This isn't like the French revolution where a majority of the country was suffering and rose up against the few.
This is very nearly 50% of the country wants to make the other 50% squirm.
It cannot be understated the role that Fox News has played to get us to this level of division.
The channel "The Necessary Conversation" has some good examples of just how radicalized some American's have gotten. It's 2 kids interviewing their MAGA parents. I think it's not uncommon for American's to know people like the parents in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hSysuwHw4KU
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This is anecdotal, America is geographically quite large. For a lot of people, where these events are happening are more than a days drive away (10 hours or more), it's not happening "here".
A lot of people here _enjoy_ the authoritarianism, judging by the votes, the voter turnout, and the private discussions I've had with my neighbors. They believe this is good for the country and that there'll be more opportunities for their kids.
A lot of other people are holding out for the midterm elections, to see if the will of the majority shifts, because otherwise its risks open civil war. And maybe just a touch of American exceptionalism—this can't actually be happening here, it'll all blow over—and distrust in the story that the media is feeding them is accurate.
And some are just fatalistic, this isn't really a surprising turn of events. America has been creeping toward this for more than a few decades, since Regan at the very least.
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A broad answer: because America is more violent. The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.
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We had nationwide riots for months back in 2020 over a police officer murdering a suspect, and that resulted in approximately zero actual political change. During the recent shutdown over the budget, we had one of the largest protests in the country’s history and massive shifts towards the opposition in elections followed by them immediately folding in exchange for essentially nothing.
The political class is very well insulated from the popular will in this country, and I fear we may be nearing the boiling point.
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I'd say a couple of reasons:
- The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.
- Lots of people are okay with it because it can only happen to the "bad guys", and why would it ever happen to them since they're the "good guys"... right?
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I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets
A riot is exactly what they want.
This is all about getting locals upset enough to break things, so the administration can justify sending in the military.
Rioting just gives them what they want.
This is a tried-and-true tactic employed by thugs throughout history.
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You need to specify what you mean by "more than". Last night ICE agents were attacked with shovels, injuring one. A man was shot.
BEFORE this began we had 7 million people protesting simultaneously nationwide—they are "out on the street" as you put it. With protests around the country every day. Minneapolis has organized hundreds into rapid response teams against ICE. The killings get more news than the protests, particularly as much of the media has been bought up by republican owners. You seem to be missing the news, and saying it does not exist.
In Philadelphia, residents are being filmed patrolling with automatic weapons in advance of ICE supposedly heading there next. Read what @asa400, another local like myself, is saying in another comment to parent.
Many locals on social media are cheering on the shootings. America is incredibly polarized right now. It's not like all the public is against the government. Nearly half of those most likely to vote in past elections support this.
You should read James Baldwin. Or read up on the debates post revolutionary war in the United States about the French revolution.
The truth is the land of the free has always been quite conservative. Which frankly, is true of most societies. In many ways that's what a society is.
Worse still, ICE stomping people out in the street is what freedom means to a vast swath of Americans. The rest are scared and leaderless and let down by an opposition that betrays their trust at every turn.
And yes Europeans keep telling Americans how to protest, but really they are little better. "Far right" candidates are already projecting big wins in the UK today. To say nothing of the victories far right parties have already secured in Europe. Spain is more familiar with blatant facisim and totalitarianism than Americans are. So idk... imo Europeans really pat themselves on the back too much... what would you do?
Provoking a riot is of questionable value anyway when he won a pretty convincing national victory at the polls just a year ago... no one has any answers as far as I can see, only empty expressions of anger... protest harder means what? I think a better start would be a coherent, defensible list of demands than anyone from a governor to a street activist can convey intelligently. Then you can try to enforce it.
But ultimately you can't muster more force than the state. If that is your only suggestion then it's a fruitless one.
> Why are Americans so passive?
Because it’s cold? Here in Minnesota it’s 17F / -7C. Factoring in the wind chill it feels like 7F / -14C.
There are other reasons too of course (geography, lack of urban density, distrust of news, apathy, etc etc) but I think the weather is a definite factor right now.
American life is so much more distributed than European life.
Population density and the gigantic geographic distance make these kinds of events feel "remote" even if they are happening in our same state.
It's a 17 hour drive from Atlanta, Georgia to Minneapolis for example.
On top of that, a lot of Americans are just barely surviving financially, so they are in full bunker mode just making rent.
It's a scary time to rebel.
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Americans have had 100 years of stable government and in the past political solutions have eventually been enacted. The Civil Rights bill was passed. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam. I think a lot of people are still expecting sanity to return. I hope they're right.
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American here; studied and lived in France and participated in some big protests there. The US just doesn't have the protest/strike culture that Europe has, it's not part of our tradition; the majority of people don't even know how or understand the implications...Also most cities in the US are built for cars , not pedestrians and people on the street.
Imo, there is too much of an individualistic culture here. Where I am people live for twenty years and barely even know their neighbors.
Yep, in all EU countries, this would lead to country wide protests with the usual result being the fall of the government and new elections. Seems like the US is missing this element of democracy.
Because I have a kid to take care of. A job I need to keep, and a way of life I'd like to maintain. Because it's not happening where I live (yet).
I care about people but I don't give a fuck about my country. It's just a place to live. If it gets too bad I'll move my family elsewhere.
Also, this whole checks and balances thing we learned about in school will surely kick in sometime soon...
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A shocking number of Americans not only think all of this is great, but they wish it was them out there shooting their neighbors.
Americans are not passive. Look at the videos of any of these incidents. People are supporting those under attack, collecting evidence, and protesting. The message is clear.
Peaceful protest is the key. Riots, violence, and fighting are not peaceful and only play into the administration's aims.
When Americans resist and protest peacefully, as they have been in the largest numbers ever in the country's history, it exposes the brutality and baseness of those commiting the heinous acts.
Through such peaceful protest as we see, America will overcome this.
The big question is, what next? How to hold people accountable, fairly, while rebuilding the system and rebuilding trust?
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spain isn’t a great example here. it has some of the most racist fans football has ever seen and yet there’s no action. only italy probably compares. if there was a government agency going after black and brown people (ie non-white) i wouldn’t bet on the spanish population to come to their rescue. lamine yamal, a young footballer of moroccan descent hasn’t been spared the vitriol of the spanish hooligans even though he was top 3 best player at the recent euro (where he helped spain to victory).
point being, given that ice is going after non-whites and is getting by, a spanish ice will get by too, with probably more ease.
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You're just describing a recipe for agents opening fire into a crowd. The opposition is doing it right: demonstrate to ICE that they're nonviolent, well coordinated, and much more numerous.
If violence is warranted, the time and place for it is not when they're all together, armed to the teeth, and looking for a fight. It's when they're off duty, alone, and not expecting a confrontation.
I remember 5 years ago americans said same things about russian civil unrest. No grand penalty for violent rioting, you can get off with just prison time!
There is a vast difference between believing that your nation would riot hard and having to risk your own life knowing that your loved ones that would be devastated if something happens.
I think it's something different than "Americans are passive" - rather, many of them/us perceive the context of what you're seeing very differently. I can share some of this perspective though I don't insist it's the only way to feel.
1. Americans on the ground are clearly feeling the effects of illegal immigration. As an example: a an African American janitor in our kids' school voted republican in 2024 for the first time in his life, because the park in his Brooklyn neighborhood has become a shanty town and he can't work out there. In that election we've seen nearly every demographic move more republican than before, and I think this is the key issue for them.
2. In that context, when ICE does something, even when we don't like it, people can understand it in the context of a larger problem they/we want solved. When you perceive "passivity" - it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved which is fine, but it's different for people who like "what" is happening even if not "how" it's happening.
3. There are plenty of people protesting and violently rioting if that's what they feel like.
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> Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots?
In the same place. You just aren't seeing footage of them on HN.
> Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground
There is, and there is lots of video of it. You only need search elsewhere.
I have seen such footage. It's all over the place. I've cited examples of what I've seen in other comments. You can infer keyword search terms from the descriptions and should be able to find them readily with any search engine.
> Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government?
They are not "extra-judicial murders". The only people who have died so far have been those whose actions presented a serious threat to the life or safety of federal officers.
Anyone who disagrees with my claim is welcome to provide contradictory evidence.
To be fair, Minneapolis is raising hell and has been for the last week. There have been many protests in other cities as well.
I would also say that Trump and his cronies would absolutely love if this boils over into a violent riot. That would give them permission to double down.
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I'm guessing that the lady laying on her horn protesting ICE doesn't have many (or any) close friends/family
Why then don't people unite against the dominance of not very friendly and culturally alien migrants, Muslims?
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We don't have the memory of the end of an authoritarian regime only fifty years in our past.
Isn't the same true of in the EU though? Immigrants and refugees from Syria were treated quite harshly and has led to a significant rise in far right parties across Europe. These parties are actively harassing immigrants and non-white groups. But there doesn't seem to be riots in the streets over it.
It's almost flipped how the US and Europe have dealt with threats. The US has a long history of organized hate groups having the run of things. I don't Europe has experienced anything like the KKK for as long. However Europe is not far removed from fascist and authoritarian regimes. So things are more fresh in the minds of citizens and they are more likely to fight them. However when attacked through another method it subverts that and allows tacit approval from the public while their neighborhoods are transformed for the worse.
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We're not passive, they would shoot us in the head
Americans aren't passive: we actively did this. The rioters are in the masks and uniforms. We went so far out of our way to arrive at this godforsaken idiot collapse.
Y'all got guns over there?
Minneapolis mayor told protestors to remain peaceful. The Democrats always want to follow the rules even when the other side has abandoned them. To be fair to Mayor Frye though, Trump wants to provoke rioting to invoke the Insurrection Act, which he threatened to do today if the Democratic officials don't "fall in line". So there is that.
Not attacking you OP, but oh look, the top comment again concern trolling the topic to something else less inconvenient. It's wild how common that is on HN.
Basically we Americans have given up on our system. Both on the left and the right. It's why the right elected Trump, and it's why the left silently elected Trump by not voting.
Americans aren't passive. 40% of the people are openly fascist and support this.
Just look at this site as a sample set.
> Why are Americans so passive?
Decades of copaganda paired with police brutality. A fairly large portion of americans view anyone with a badge as "the good guy" by default.
But, I think people are also fearful about what happens after the riots start. Nobody is excited about Trump using a riot as an excuse to declare martial law and deploy the military everywhere. There's still some hope that cities and states will step up and do their job. These ICE agents can and should be prosecuted.
> Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside?
They aren't. And unfortunately a LOT of US media is sanewashing. We have dedicated channels like fox news which are basically framing everything as "violent protesters attacking the police for trying to arrest bad guys". But even centrist and slightly left mainstream media is bending over backwards to give excuses and "both sides" this. Doing things like using a lot of passive language or just not reporting on the raids all together. You basically need to be online or tuned in to alternative media to learn about this stuff.
There's also the very simple and real fact that fascists already have the power. People are scared. There's about 30% of the citizenship who could literally drive a car through a protest or open up fire who'd be completely protected by the state for those actions. Most of the people that'd do that are already employed by ICE.
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There are a lot of differences. Americans are not being passive. For one thing, reasonable or not there is still a lot of faith in the election process and many are expecting all this craziness will put Republicans on a back seat for decades. For another, these ICE groups are well armed and operate in numbers. Many Americans are also armed and have deep misgivings about political violence and where this is headed. Where you see "passive" many of us see "knife edge". Also, many live staying busy and near exhaustion to start with and have trouble coming to grips with just how bad this is as no one has ever shown this much contempt for laws without consequences. There is an expectation that the constitution will hold any test. And those following closely understand that just about everything Trump has done including tariffs are illegal and the courts are closing in.
Worth mentioning that America does not have a protest culture like Europe. Being largely rural makes gathering for political expression impractical, and in this particular case Trump and his militias are deliberately trying to stir up chaos in order to rationalize cranking up the pressure. Protests make noise and get you targeted but what is needed now is real change.
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man honestly all this stuff pisses me off but I'm just trying to survive over here in my own life. Got friends from all over but no one is really ready to put their life on the line. Like, most disagree with Trump's agenda, many find it offensive, but bottom line is staying healthy, finding work, paying bills, taking care of ppl immediately around you is more important.
Truth is, lots of Americans are really divorced from the reality undocumented immigrants are facing right now. Lots of immigrants from 10-15+ years ago aren't worried if they are law abiding (anecdotal). The online rhetoric rly doesn't match daily life in my most places aside from the active hotbeds.
-- Martin Niemöller
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A pervasive "Someone needs to do something!!!" attitude is why. Americans will forever wait for the school principal to come and get everyone into trouble
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Americans have wanted the border fixed for around a century.
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Some folks have observed that the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and other established far-right groups aren't marching as much recently:
> “How many pardoned January 6th insurrectionists have been hired by your respective departments?” Raskin (D-Md.), ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, asked the two officials [Bondi and Noem].
* https://www.commondreams.org/news/ice-agents-january-6
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Waving signs, yelling and filming is not obstruction
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^ This troll apparently likes federal law enforcement wearing masks.
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Police don't deserve "respect" for being police. They don't get to shoot or brutalize people for "disrespecting" them. They are servants of the people and should humble themselves appropriately and act with that consciousness, not act as though they are noble beings superior to other men, not beholden to earthly law.
Why should civilians respect federal LEOs when they detain citizens, who have committed no crimes, under the pretense of immigration enforcement? Why does the lack of respect for LEOs justify beating non-violent civilians, smashing into their cars, randomly shooting pepper spray and tear gas, and raiding homes without a warrant?
Deserve what exactly? Should people respect unconstitutional actions by LEOs?
The perspective that is constantly missing from these one-sided ICE threads on HN and Reddit (but often exposed in videos after the fact): What are the civilians/protesters actually doing in these situations?
This kind of "I'm a sovereign citizen, you can't touch me" behavior used to be rightfully belittled by the same crowd only a few years ago.
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> A member of Governor Walz’s staff
> Grove's departure from state government
Pick one!
A person who believes the above examples should try to find the videos or other details of each case in order to be sure they are being told the truth.
Assuming that the “carried the woman through the street” is the same case as the video I watched, she was clearly deliberately obstructing traffic, as she wasn’t continuing to drive down the street despite the road being clear with no vehicles ahead of her. She then is removed from the car by force and refuses to move, requiring her to be carried.
I’m here in the ground, I’ve seen them detain people for no cause. Masked agents grabbing guys out of a Home Depot parking lot and throwing them in a van only to drop them off later after scaring them. No charges.
Maybe you’ll be lucky enough to get picked up so you can get your proof.
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> she was clearly deliberately obstructing traffic,
You are lying. She waited for the pedestrian to cross.
Also, obstructing traffic is not valid reason to be violent against someone. ICE or cops being violent in that situation is them abusing their power big time. So, again, we are back to Brownshirts comparison.
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It's bizarre to me that your comment was flagged and killed (here's a vouch). You see what you see in the video. There is nothing about your comment that violates HN guidelines. On the other hand, rhetoric about "lying" and "fascist assholes" is clearly not in the spirit of constructive dialog.
Other people here seem to think that "obstructing" something entails making it impossible to get around. That is just... not how that language ordinarily works. They also misrepresent your argument, skipping all the steps in between, as if you were asserting that people are being shot directly as a punishment for obstructing traffic. That's clearly not what anyone is saying or justifying, including the officers themselves.
Yeah probably is all just made up seems like good guys /s
Is there video for any of that?
If there is proof of it would it change your mind about anything?
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Tons
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Yes
Where does the Palantir app come into any of these stories?
If you work for Palantir and if you work on these systems: You have blood on your hands. You know that it's not right what is happening on the ground right now. Do something.
The particular problem here is the vast majority of people that are writing this software
1. Don't care, blood is great.
2. Think they are the good guys.
3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.
> 3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.
i feel like a broken record: anyone with a resume good enough for Palantir would have no problem finding work for another company/public sector employer. but they stay.
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I don’t think it’s really this simple. Palantir is a major government contractor that enables it to be more tech savvy. It’s embedded through hundreds of teams / agencies. You can’t remain a credible partner if you play morality police on every workflow. Palantir has worked through multiple administrations of both parties and have to support whoever is in power to have a seat at the table.
Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?
Otherwise you can agree or disagree with government policies, but that shouldn’t be directed at tech vendors, it should be directed at politicians and people in government / at the voting booth.
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Not surprised. At least 30% of the population voted for the current president. Should be some software developers among those?
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You forgot another point--or it could be related to #3: off-shoring and H1B. Many people are just working the job and working on a small piece of software where they don't know or care about the ramification of project. They're getting paid and even if they know what's happening, they're not incentivized to care about what happens in America.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
Getting a worker to understand that their work negatively affects innocent people is a big uphill battle.
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Yes, Palantir folks have self selected for the first two over and over - anyone working there for many years now is completely blacklisted from anything I touch, when someone advertises ex-Palantir folks in the job description I know I can safely avoid that company forever.
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"The most monstrous monster is the monster with noble feelings"
In a thread last year a Palantir employee said most of them were either Indian, East Asians, or laid off and/or unemployable White males. Good luck guilt-tripping any of them.
Note: I'm not American, nor White/WASP, nor Asian.
I'd like to invite you to prove any three of your points.
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Palantir does not work in a vacuum - it requires other technology, platforms and systems to operate and succeed - many of which are designed and maintained by the users of Hacker News.
Take a look at Palantir's trust center: https://palantir.safebase.us
Schellman did their audit and compliance - do they have blood on their hands?
How about AWS, GCP, Azure cloud resources used by Palantir - are they stained, too?
Certainly you must be aware that there are not just binary values of morality in life. The obvious answer is yes they are stained, as we all are through our participation in various systems, but with vastly varying amounts.
Is the manufacturer of the bomb responsible for when Israel drops it on a family home in Gaza? Yes. Is it the same responsibility as the general who gave the order? No. Is it the same as the pilot who followed the order? No.
Does that make it useless to hold people accountable? Of course not.
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Palantir is built explicitly for surveillance, in a way the other companies you listed are not. There is no comparison here. It's like saying the City of Minneapolis is complicit because they maintain the roads ICE is driving on.
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The ironworker making steel plates for tanks and ships has a hell of a lot less moral culpability than the engineer designing shells.
Yes, this is how market economy works. For every organization doing horrible things, literally everyone is a small number of payment-handshakes from it.
No, it doesn't mean that "mr gotcha"[1] argument is valid. You don't have to isolate yourself from society Kaczynski-style to either criticize society or to do something smaller (like choosing who you work for).
[1] https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
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> If you work in technology, you are part of this force, whether you like it or not.
Disappointing to see you downvoted. I agree with this partially, but only because I think it applies more broadly.
I work in tech (although not in Big Tech/Mag 7/FAANG/whatever they're called now), and I feel quite acutely that anyone in the field is culpable in part for the enabling the absolutely massive dump that the capital-adjacent class is taking on the world to have their power play fantasies play out.
To the extent that I've started apologising on behalf of the field/profession to non-technical folks when they complain about yet another dark pattern/"growth hack" designed to steal their attention and money.
Yes, they all are. Profits and shareholders value trump anything else. So yes, they are accomplices in the destruction of American democracy.
You can’t minimize the damage Palantir is doing with simple whataboutism.
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PLTR stock peaked at $200 last year and has been going back up so far this year. People are investing in CCP style tech and don't care.
A Palantir rep was supporting one of our exercises late last summer, and he said "Knowing what I know about how the military is going all-in on Maven....I recommend buying Palantir stock."
I picked up a few shares, but I haven't checked if Palantir's growth has been unique or part of a general military-industrial complex melt-up.
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The US gov (including ICE) uses all of Microsoft Office for coordination and planning: email, spreadsheets, powerpoint, document generation, etc. Would you say Microsoft employees have blood on their hands too? If not, what makes Microsoft different?
From the article for context:
> Palantir is working on a tool for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that populates a map with potential deportation targets, brings up a dossier on each person, and provides a “confidence score” on the person’s current address
So essentially, the relevant app here is custom built in order to help ICE raids.
That's substantially different from generic office tech where ICE happen to be one of millions of users.
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Taking your argument in good faith: I think selling a tool with a narrow use case tailor-made for ICE is categorically different.
The same difference between a kitchen knife and an AK 47
Considering that Microsoft is also providing services to the Israeli government with the explicit intent of storing and cataloging all of the phone calls made by Palestinian citizens so that they can be analyzed by AI for potential bombing targets...yes I would say Microsoft also has blood on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have deep partnerships with Palantir for compute services.
Office can be used for things that aren't objectively evil?
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Microsoft is a modern IBM holocaust tabulation machine. Yes, many of the people who work for Microsoft should be prosecuted and put in prison for war crimes, with varying degrees of culpability. There are people in MS who knowing negotiated deals that aided and abetted war crimes, and those who wrote morally repugnant military surveillance software that was used to automate mass murder in the Gaza holocaust.
Yes, absolutely. These are criminal scum, on par with pedos. Just look at how they are helping a people getting wiped out from their own territory in the Middle East.
Whataboutism, much?
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I assume if someone works for Palantir they're an unabashed Yarvinist and fine with it.
That's a pretty broad generalization, but OK I'll bite.
- I think Yarvin has a lot of good points. No one should be ashamed to admit the truth of a matter. I can't stand his voice, I think he has annoying mannerisms, but nonetheless the man has a point and I'm not ashamed (especially by unknown and strange online personas) to say so.
- Palantir is objectively a profitable job. I've learned a lot here and the people I work with are brilliant.
- I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.
Let's be honest, simply conjecturing that someone ascribes to a political view isn't discourse. It's a potshot. You're assuming that anyone who reads your comment and leans in your direction is going to agree and vote with you. This is literally the lowest and cheapest form of engagement. It's also the most self serving. It does nothing to advance the conversation or prove your point.
Most importantly, this is the exact type of behavior that is furthering political polarization and discouraging actual discourse.
Really shows the state of things right now tbh.
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A guy I grew up with that works at Palantir.
Here's his thinking:
1. He's white and lives in a blue state. Doesn't affect him. Oh, and money. 2. The attention on Palantir and their customers makes his stock and options go up. He's happy, because money. 3. His GOP-worshipping parents get to brag to their GOP-worshipping friends that their son is helping God's Gift to Humanity - Donald Trump. And making bank while doing it. 4. He believes that Palantir is doing good work, and that's the end of it. He believes himself to be a genuinely good guy, so if he's doing something, it must be good.
In general, if you're working for Palantir, you're unlikely to find yourself in the right side of history. Whenever you hear of tech being used for questionable purposes, Palantir seems to have their fingers deep in the pie.
Siemens, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Krupp all seem to be doing just fine today.
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You can apply similar arguments to many companies including Facebook. The programmer community as a whole is not ethical.
Hopefully John Connor is one of them. Deeply embedded, slowly implanting backdoors and kill switches into the Skynet system they are building.
Palantir has been doing awful shit since it started, so you have to presume that anybody that works there is on board with it.
It looks like their CTO is an Indian or Pakistani: https://investors.palantir.com/governance/executive-manageme...
I wonder how he feels about what the administration is doing and how his own work is directly helping them. Surely he is aware of all of the supremacist rhetoric coming from the official Twitter accounts of various government agencies or Elon Musk or Stephen Miller. Surely he has seen the kind of racist abuse that Vivek Ramaswami endured on Twitter, which led to him recently quitting social media.
Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?
> Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?
People are often remarkably good at this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National...
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Meh, I blame social media specifically and media generally for the state of our country. Why call out just Palantir. The US, maybe the world, would be better off if companies like Meta (and others) didn't exist....
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You don't seem to disagree with parent, and as long as you're aware you have blood on your hands, I guess cool?
Why try to inflame the conversation even more? Just curious what you get out of it, because you're clearly not curious, or trying to understand something here.
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Wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that the people who allowed or even encouraged illegal immigration have blood on their hands because they know what they were doing and how the government would have to respond under the law? If we are going to use the line of reasoning you suggest then this should easily be on the table also.
This rests on the assumption that the government has to respond with violence.
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People like... Donald Trump, prominent employer of illegal labor for decades?
If you want to go after prominent employers of illegal labor (and others who profit from it) I shan't shed a tear. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening.
I've been on the receiving end of federal enforcement (DOJ, high-profile "cybercrime"). When they want you, they don't need a confidence score. There is no quota—they take time to build a case. The existence of these tools tells you this isn't targeted enforcement, it's industrial-scale population processing dressed up in an algorithm.
I live in Minnesota. This is my backyard.
The Palantro CEO, Alex Karp, is on the record that he approves of what the president is doing in regards to immigration enforcement and the striking of boats in international waters.
"The Palantir CEO is currently the 142nd richest man in the world, with an estimated net worth of $18.2 billion..."
https://www.realtor.com/news/celebrity-real-estate/alex-karp...
Terrorizing everyone indiscriminately is not immigration enforcement.
This type of behaviour from Palantir is old news: https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticia...
900 million in federal contracts this year will do that
Why would he object to illegal acts by the US when they are so profitable.
We need to expect more from our business leaders.
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And in 2016 he was a Clinton supporter and a self described progressive. Vance was also a never trumper by his own admission.
It’s quite clear to me that these elites are just grabbing power by any means necessary. It won’t end after Trump. He’s just providing the cover in the current moment.
When the transition to authoritarianism starts elites have a choice to make.
History show most will choose authoritarianism.
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This is a man that has never been punched in his mouth.
And ppl were worried about China's 1984 style use of Ai, lol. In the end it was greedy software developers that enable this.
Some guy on X recently commented on how “dystopian” Flock’s nationwide surveillance is.
Response by Garry Tan (CEO of YC)[1]
“You're thinking Chinese surveillance
US-based surveillance helps victims and prevents more victims”
[1] https://x.com/garrytan/status/1963310592615485955
Amazing. I have a hard time believing that comment isn't sarcastic, its just too perfect. Its hard to tell these days
If its not, it sounds like the output of an LLM if prompted "You are a toddler. Write the most naive and illogical ideological propaganda possible. Offer no rational justification for your thoughts"
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Surveillance does not prevent victims. Precrime would, but who wants that?
> And ppl were worried about China's 1984 style use of Ai, lol.
Came here to say the same...
> In the end it was greedy software developers that enable this.
Nope. First is a failing govt system (not upholding the constitution) that's enabling this.
Second it's not the devs but the business men (that are so much in bed in govt that they have become indistinguishable).
Look, there are software devs (and probably business men) that are equally greedy in, say, Finland/Iceland/etc. But it's not happening there: they simply have a govt that's better for the people at large.
GP didn't say greedy devs caused it, they (we?) are only enabling it.
Obviously there's always the cop out of "someone else would have done it anyway" but it doesn't really change the (un-)ethical side of your choices. I'm not saying it's black and white either - if the other choice is to leave your kids without proper medical care then it's a different thing than just being intentionally blind to ethics.
This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule enabling people to hide and avoid being confronted with the ramifications of their actions.
The entire world runs on technology now. It's all inherently political.
I'm going to defend the HN "no politics" rule here.
The reason "no politics" zones exist is because there are enough people going out of their way to shout at everybody, everywhere, in every corner of the internet and enough people are tired of it that they flock to...no politics zones. In real life, a person like that confronts you...you remove yourself from the situation, because that person who can't stop shouting at everybody comes across as nuts.
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Yes, HN is my safe space. I have enough politics in my daily life, I don't need it when I'm with phone in my bed trying to wind down.
And which politics? American internal politics are foreign and distant to me. How much do you care about my country internal affairs? Probably not much. And it's OK, you can't fix every country in existence, and if you tried to care you would get insane.
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>"no politics"
No politics is a privilege that many do not have.
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You can see in this threat that confronting people with the ramifications of their actions causes them to double down. They'll just come up with more and more justifications of why the victims deserve it. Same as every mass atrocity.
There’s a shockingly large amount of the population that doesn’t want politics period. And that’s how we got here.
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I don't think you can really blame HN specifically here. It's much wider than that; pretty much the tech industry as a whole actively discourages any kind of philosophical reflection on technology, at least the kind that says you shouldn't build something, even if it's profitable.
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> This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule
HN does not have, and never has had (except for a very brief experiment that failed spectacularly and was very quickly aborted) a “no politics” rule, and, in fact, politics is usually all over the site.
This exactly hits in on the head. You're trying create a forum absent of politics. In fact, you're just enabling one political view over another. This hides social issues and in the end comes back to undermine your pure "technical view". It's not apolitical, it's disassociation from reality.
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There have been some insane politics (especially "culture war" stuff) that got laundered through the HN "reasonable discussion" filter, especially from 2021 through 2024. They still come up all the time. HN loves talking about politics when the commenters can get critical mass to grind the libertarian or "anti-woke" axe.
Not to mention every leader of YCombinator has had some kind of wild politics that come from having money that separates you from any kind of consequence.
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Has your life gotten worse in any way that can be attributed to people moving to the US?
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Worth reminding everyone in the EU and UK that this is not a 'them' problem.
Palantir is the main software vendor for Europol. Equally pretty much all the 1984 proposals for age or id online verification that are being massaged into existence (both in the UK and pushed by the European Commission) have their fingers all over them.
They sell pre-crime and opinion control to our democratic leaders and apparently everyone in Davos loves it.
For some reasons I think europol officers (the ones taking decisions, at least) are loving ice. They didn't have issues when proposing to expand chat control, which would meant large scale surveillance, so they'd appreciate whatever palantir can come out with
Speaking of UK, they also run the NHS data warehousing.
Great time to bring up the Imperial Boomerang[1]. My paraphrasing: the weapons and technology that imperial and colonial powers develop or use to control subjugated populations will inevitably be used to also control its own population.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_boomerang
As always, I like to point out that someone here is probably very proud of their work on this.
And, if you criticize them for building these systems, they'll trot out the usual excuses:
- Well, I'm working on interesting technical problems at massive scale. Leave it to the business guys to figure out how to apply it--not my problem.
- Well, I just move protobufs from one middleware API to another. I don't even talk to the application guys.
- Well, I just write the code my boss tells me to write. I don't want to be fired!
No, actually at least one person in this comment section is outright happy to say they like what is going on.
These people don't care what harms "deporting illegals" means, because they aren't really attached to reality and are utterly lacking empathy.
"Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man imprisoned" is clearly not something they consider acceptable.
These losers are everywhere on HN, 10+ replying to the top comment. No surprise considering who runs the site.
I keep thinking about https://neveragain.tech
3 people from Palantir on that list of signatories
A decent chunk of people on that list are working at the companies that are actively harming society. At what point does it become a joke? It's not like the millionaire devs working at big tech couldn't take a stand, but I guess their addiction to money is more preferential than sacrificing something to better society.
Law and order and bureaucracy is a seductive, all encompassing, crushing force.
I have never heard of this site but find it confusing that there is no information on the date this was started or which administration they are referring to.
I am all for criticizing and pointing fingers at trump and this entire administration.
But it does say they have been working with ICE for “years” in the article. What is not really clear to me is was the app made worse recently, was it originally commissioned under trump?
Nothing about that changes that they should not be working with ICE and they deserve any pressure they get to cut ties. But there is some history here I am very curious about.
All of that being said, I am concerned about how this will be turned around and used in more than just ICE and targeting everyone. Especially since we can be sure this will be used in largely blue big cities.
They've definitely using tools like this for a while. It's been true under all administrations, and it's always been a problem. Privacy advocates have been alerting on this for a while.
Physically attacking citizens takes it to another level.
It's one thing for tech companies to be complicit in eroding privacy, it's quite another to be complicit in overt fascism.
> is not really clear to me is was the app made worse recently, was it originally commissioned under trump?
I think it's pretty clear that we've slidden into this situation for years.
This is what privacy advocates have been shouting about a long time. When the systems are in place all you need is a trigger for everything to go to hell.
It was a boring database product in 2011. It expanded in scope over many years, and now has a much larger budget.
"That changed in the second Trump administration, with Palantir now working on ICE’s deportation efforts."
https://www.palantir.com/newsroom/press-releases/homeland-se...
"...Since 2011, Palantir has partnered with HSI"
ICE is already targeting everyone.
"I am all for criticizing and pointing fingers at trump and this entire administration"
I don't believe you or you wouldn't have bothered to muddy the water in the face of repeated violence and dehumanization.
We get absolutely nowhere if we just blindly blame trump for everything. All it does is give the other side ammunication to paint us as just “anti trump” when they can poke holes in our information. We have to be better than them.
We have to have all of the information and actually inform people instead of the half and twisted “truths” that is all that ever spew from this administration.
It doesn’t change or diminish what is going on right now, but it changes some of the conversation around this particular contract.
I guarantee you that if this contract started under the Obama or Biden administration and we just conveniently ignore that, it will come back and bite us in the ass. This app existing before this administration, what form did it exist, and how much use did it get is critical information.
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Reading comment sections for news like this makes one understand better how it is possible that widescale horrible things happen.
At first you'll learn about something horrible in the past and think, How could people let that happen, yet alone participate in it? Well, its spelled out pretty neatly here.
Some people don't care - its "them" being targeted (jews, tutsi, immigrants), not "us". Some people care, but not in the way you'd think - they agree with the actions. Some people just wash their hands - I was only following orders, I was only working for Palantir. Some will be dismissive or downplay what is happening: its no big deal, its overblown, its being exaggerated and distorted by Radical Left-Wing Terrorists™.
This is how bad things happen.
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I have a message to all Palantir employees. You can quit, you don't have to make this technology. Palantir cannot function without you.
Let me tell you a story. When I was young, just out of college, I worked for a tech startup. The tech startup was a mapping company. At some point I overheard the company CEO talking about how the software I built was being used. I thought it was being used to help track miners and equipment working in mines so that if there is an accident, they know where all the people and equipment are so they can be saved.
I learned by overhearing him that the software was being used in the Iraq war to track people to kill. I wasn't supposed to know since I didn't have a security clearance to know.
I quit that job over this.
I told this story because there are certainly employees there that don't have the clearance to know what is happening. But the reporting is making it clear. You can quit your job. They can't function without you.
Per the WSJ, as of January 10th this year, ICE has identified 13 instances of agents firing at or into civilian vehicles, leaving eight people shot with two confirmed dead. Five of those shot were citizens. According to court records, only one of these civilians was armed and never drew his weapon.
There is a sickness curdling in the dark corners of Silicon Valley. These people need to be humiliated for being the sniveling, authoritarian toads that they are.
There are reports that ICE threw a flash bang into a vehicle last night that contained a father trying to leave with his children to get them to safety.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbMO7u44LGM
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Evil X thing happened; therefore, do evil Y thing - go fuck yourself.
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"humiliating" folks might not be the proportional response when innocent people are dying
How else are we supposed to deter tech people from working for Palantir? What is a good polite method?
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people cannot yet be held accountable; this is an important first step, however.
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I remember hearing the "imagine if Stasi/Gestapo had the data Facebook and Twitter have on us" argument for years. Turns out they were right to be worried.
Why would you think they wouldn't be right? Even on paper, doesn't that sound like a bad thing?
the past 15 years of my life feels like a bus full of people yelling at the driver to not hit the wall he's speeding towards and he's just ignoring them saying "it will be fine." and here we are!
https://archive.ph/9UPzF
Can someone tell me three things, please! - is ICE illegal or immoral ? Or it is a good tool used wrong ? - can people vote and make ICE stronger / weaker depending on their choice ? - are non registered people breaking the law or not ? Is it basically bad law or bad people ? I am sure US is republic and democracy together, but everyone here pretends ICE is a tool of dictatorship and should be stopped immediately.
If you ask about my personal opinion - it is an internal problem of US citizens, and they need to fix it.
> Or it is a good tool used wrong
This. ICE serves a necessary function. It is intentionally being wielded with malice. The target is not immigrants, they are just the face of the brawl, the real target is democratic voters.
> can people vote and make ICE stronger / weaker depending on their choice
This question is easy to answer. The citizens could easily vote in a new president in 2028 who defunded ICE altogether. We already know that cutting funds is way easier than granting them.
>The citizens could easily vote in a new president in 2028 who defunded ICE altogether.
You think that after two more years of this regime that any such candidate would be allowed anywhere near whatever pretense of an electoral system still exists?
I need you to understand that the United States is already no longer a democratic republic in anything but name. The system of government you're assuming will fix the mess will have been entirely dismantled by then. The time to fix this within the system was in 2024.
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Blue cities should have local citizen backed militias under the control of the mayor.
The national guard exists for this purpose (state level) but is mostly captured by federal interests.
Local PD's could in effect do something similar but have shown to back the authoritarian-aligned party.
Propaganda has aligned nearly every single level of law enforcement to authoritarianism. I can't see a scenario where this is undone.
Some states also have a “state defense force” which is explicitly under the control of the state. But they tend to be pretty small I think, and lots of them are inactive or purely ceremonial.
How would that be different from current municipal police forces?
The "under the control of the mayor" bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrolmen%27s_Benevolent_Assoc...
> Approximately 4,000 NYPD officers took part in a protest that included blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge and jumping over police barricades in an attempt to rush City Hall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_San_Francisco_P...
> The ACLU obtained a court order prohibiting strikers from carrying their service revolvers. Again, the SFPD ignored the court order. On August 20, a bomb detonated at the Mayor's home with a sign reading "Don't Threaten Us" left on his lawn.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/nyregion/chiara-de-blasio...
> Among the hundreds of protesters arrested over the four days of demonstrations in New York City over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, only one was highlighted by name by a police union known for its hostility toward Mayor Bill de Blasio. The name of that protester? Chiara de Blasio, the mayor’s daughter.
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“Under control of the mayor” would be different from many current municipal police forces.
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If you think there's any city in the US with antifa "under the control of the mayor", phew. I'm not sure what to say to that.
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I suspect they are using it in this encounter, where someone just out for a walk is harassed by armed men…
https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qbawlr/minnea...
Can anyone explain a user flow for how a Palantir product enables ICE to go from app launch to ‘target arrested’?
Here's an example. One of my friends works for a manufacturing company. He attended a protest. The next day ICE called his employer and he was informed that if he attended another protest he would be fired. All this b/c he had a small company logo on his jacket.
The ability to en-mass record, lookup and intimidate citizens is unprecedented and while I have no hard proof that this is due to Palantir, it sure smells like it
Firing due to political activity outside of work? That sounds super illegal.
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My understanding (and I couldn't get past the app paywall) is that Palantir is joining databases from many different federal and state agencies, including passport and driver license photos. The app then allows you to scan a phase and it finds a match. It returns information on the person found, including citizenship.
The existence of this technology means that ICE can grab anyone they want, scan their face, and instantly have (or not have) probable cause to arrest them. Without the app, there would be hours before probably cause could be established which makes justifying the detainment legally much harder. I.e without the app, ICE has to actually build a case or see something suspicious for each target. With the app, ICE can just mass sweep people.
Which should be illegal, but thanks to the shadow docket order on Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo, is happening anyway.
CBP has been taking photos of all legitimate foreign visitors to the US for over 20 years. I presume any catch-and-release border apprehensions are subject to the same photographs.
How hard is it to do facial recognition on just this dataset in real-time?
You can be fairly certain that database also uses data from the US social media companies.
NGL this sounds like pretty basic technology
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> “Enhanced Leads Identification & Targeting for Enforcement (ELITE) is a targeting tool designed to improve capabilities for identifying and prioritizing high-value targets
What constitutes this "high value"? & valuable to who, ICE agents with an itchy trigger finger?
> What constitutes this "high value"?
It's pretty simple[1].
1: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart
Anyone who works for Palantir or this corrupt administration should be blacklisted from the industry
Maybe we can form the Silicon Valley Un-American Activities Committee?
ADL would like to have a word with you….
> confidence score
Is this the new social credit?
Does anyone else think that the biggest reason for ICE and the National Guard deployments is to normalise such situations?
It seems most likely to me this is being done in preparation for the ending of democracy. If the midterms become mired in controversy, for example, there will be protests on the streets. And these deployments will be ready to crush dissent. This is why deployments are mostly focused on the likely flashpoints.
Make no mistake, the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota are only a training ground for how to undermine civil rights for us all. Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality. But eventually these same tools will be used against us.
> Everyone is ok targeting the immigrant populations
To echo another commentor, we're not. And even if we were, this is not how it should be done. Enforcing the laws is one thing, but we have to have due process. Without due process, we have no rights.
Due process for EVERY person in the legal territory regardless of who or what they are. Otherwise it's way to easy to say, "they're the other, and have no rights", and they are already using this line.
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> Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations
No, we're not.
I think the GP means the collective "we" is OK with it, evidenced simply by the fact that it is happening.
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I meant "we" in the sense that our country has yet to put an end to it and there is still a majority of people either actively in support of ICE or remaining silent.
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Then argue for democratically changing the law to make them unambiguously legal.
Selectively enforcing only the laws you want to is the key enabler of corruption.
> Selectively enforcing only the laws you want to is the key enabler of corruption.
Like expanding Presidential immunity specifically for a President with 34 existing felony convictions?
Or the admin refusing to even investigate the agent in the Good shooting (https://www.axios.com/2026/01/14/ice-trump-minneapolis-inves...) while going after her widow (https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/13/us/prosecutors-doj-resign...)?
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Current ICE/Homeland Security actions are unambiguously illegal.
The problem is that without an independent congress the US system is able to descend into authoritarianism. The court has (reasonably) decided that on many broad issues regarding presidential actions and abuse of authority only congress (via impeachment and removal) is able to constrain the president.
The current congressional majority has, for now, decided to allow the president to do almost anything he wants, regardless of the law and constitution.
> Selectively enforcing only the laws you want to is the key enabler of corruption.
That's what the OP is saying.
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Congress has been neutered and there's been efforts to ensure that it stays that way.
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Along the same lines, anyone who thinks this is just about immigration should ask themselves what all these tens of thousands of ICE agents are going to do when all the immigrants are finally deported.
Are they just going to go home and go back to their old jobs? Or do you think the Administration is going to find something else for them to do.
Deportations aren’t all that high. The raids are theater.
Thinking that they’re going to deport all the immigrants isn’t realistic or supported by the numbers. Immigration control is a constant ongoing operation in every country. This administration is just making a big show out of it for political points.
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They might "look for immigrants" near polling stations in November?
Would be very bad if "immigrants" (i.e. not wearing a fair face with a matching MAGA hat) could vote, amirite?
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They could monitor the midterm elections /s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
>the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota
If you think this is only immigration enforcement you haven't been paying attention. That was ostensibly what Trump campaigned on. That is not what is happening in Minnesota and other previously safe places. What is happening is a massive terror campaign against all US citizens who don't happen to be the right color. And increasing, against everyone.
I have a hunch most people recognize this, but many are ok with it. I have hope (But not confidence) people will see this in the upcoming US elections and more broadly. This is transparent authoritarian behavior.
Edit: Challenge: If you downvoted the parent post here (It's currently grey), I would love to hear why you think this doesn't match the pattern. Are you living in the US? I in general am struggling to understand my fellow US citizens, given the history of our nation.
I expect masked ICE agents to be deployed to polls in purple and blue states to "prevent non-citizens from voting" (i.e. to scare minorities away from polls)
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I would start with this, because it's a flat out lie
> Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality.
People have been complaining about the attack on immigrants for a good, long while. And the complaining has been getting louder, more frequent, and from more people with every day. When they kidnapped workers and suddenly the price of everything went up, there was a lot of "see?!? this is what we're talking about"
So no, "everyone" isn't ok with the targeting of immigrants.
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Musk tweeted yesterday that speaking hate against the country should be considered treason and lead to being locked-up.
It's not hard to shift "anti-American" speech to mean "anti-ICE", anti-current-administration, etc.
He should be allowed to say that.
But it should not be enforced, or the constitution became toilet paper. I think we are arriving at the latter.
Mr "free speech" Musk (/s)
If it is this tweet you are referring to, it's about _teaching_ hate, which is only a slight nuance and still a terrible point to make for a self-labeled "free speech absolutist"
> Teaching people to hate America fundamentally destroys patriotism and the desire to defend our country.
> Such teachings should be viewed as treason and those who do it imprisoned.
https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/2011519593492402617#m
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Palestine was the training ground, now it is being deployed back at home. Turns out it is a small world and you shouldn't have selective empathy.
"First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me"
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Citation needed.
There's a clear difference in the premises behind the thinking of the "right" vs. the "left". One side sees "evil officers acting too aggressively towards fellow humans", and the other side sees "patriotic police catching criminal aliens, and leftists attacking the police".
Those are the two ways of thinking I've noticed.
To the eventual detriment of the latter, I expect. There are plenty of people currently on the "evil officers" side who would be much more willing to support the mass deportation effort if the ICE officers were calm, unmasked, not using violent SWAT tactics just to apprehend an undocumented immigrant. This intentional violence turns away a lot of people who'd otherwise be sympathetic to the goals.
It's not really a good ad for their software as they appear to be grabbing brown skinned people at random.
Appears based on what? What percentage of detainees do you think are illegal vs legal residents?
Well the idea is that you grab brown people en masse and then scan them with the app. In fact the entire point of the app is to enable grabbing brown people en masse, so it's probably looking pretty good to Noem and the like.
We were worried about China using force over Uyghurs. non-white Americans are the Uyghurs now.
Congress and Supreme court ought to be reigning the executive branch and enforcing citizen rights according to constitution and bill of rights.
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I am pretty underwhelmed by what this tool does.
There is a list of suspects. It does not say this is sourced by Palantir, but it is at least consumed. [1]
It puts flag on a map where the list says the persons(s) may be. Based on addresses listed in government documents.
It indicates the lists ranking of importance. And whatever links to crimes done or crimes suspected of.
ICE leadership can add priority meta data to the list.
This is not 2026 hyper advanced software. And the government paying huge money for it well that is just public procurement.
I mean imagine
[1] The list itself being pulled from several data sources.
Mods are going to boot this off the front page.
Mostly flagging from individual pro-ICE HN accounts.
How did this fell off the homepage so fast?
ratio of comments to upvotes is the usual reason
It's crazy that anybody who has read books could learn about the company "Palantir," know where the name comes from, and join it thinking it's anything other than evil.
The thing is, I know palantir engineers are well paid. Money warps people's brains. It's much easier enable evil if you can go back to a home you own in Silicon Valley.
> know where the name comes from
This is a wild point to me, yeah.
The Palantir is literally a cautionary tale on the risks of thinking you can use the enemy's tools without being corrupted by it.
I've lost count of people who have read Tolkien's work and never dug deeper than "cool fantasy story" level. I was no different when I read the Lord of the Rings as a teenager. Unlike C. S. Lewis, Tolkien does not shove his message down your throat.
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I think they know exactly what they were doing with the naming. They were and are absolutely ok with the evil connotations and uses
No one ever joined palantir thinking they were a good person. You join palantir because you've done enough drugs to believe that "good" and "evil" don't exist and you've "evolved" beyond that. You know, sociopaths.
Silicon Valley started with hippies and will end with fascists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
Wasn't there a meme called owl really?
I don't know how much people outside of MN know about what's going on, but it's fucking dire here. However bad you think it is, it's worse.
There are more Feds running around then state and local police
As bad as Chicago?
Here's a recent write-up by a local: https://wburdine.substack.com/p/letter-from-an-occupied-minn...
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Much worse
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This is extremely relevant for the current conversation. All this has happened before.
IBM and the holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
Every single engineer who works on this should be in prison for life. Nuremberg trials are coming. Be careful associating yourself with techno-fascists, history will not forget your git commits on evil technologies.
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I remember in the 2010s when Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place, and now it's just fascists who want to use technology to kill brown people more efficiently
> Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place
No, it wasn't, it was full of people who said they wanted to use technology to make the world a better place because saying you would use technology to make the world a better place was viewed as the path to investment and success.
Now, as soon as feigned empathy is no longer required for $$$, the mask comes off. It was never about anything other than profit.
And yet their base ate up the claim that DOGE was about getting rid of waste, fraud and abuse.
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Correct! The reason so many Silicon Valley types love Trump is they can finally stop pretending to care about people.
This take is so wrong it qualifies as delusional. The valley was all about money and nothing but money by any means by no later 1996 when the dotcom got under way. In 2001 I was at a company actively engaging in meetings with a certain three letter agency wanted us to build a secret project to tap oc192 cables at various service providers while talking about how the internet was bringing freedom and openness to society.
Tech has been a cesspool for thirty years.
SV was always full of limp wristed callous nerds who hate those they consider to be beneath them. Back them they called themselves libertarians or ancaps or something along those lines, but fundamentally nothing has changed.
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Most of the people in the Trump administration are not ideological. They are grifters, in it for money and status.
Palantir is probably similar
I'm not sure saying "I don't care if we do fascism as long as it makes me money" is any more morally defensible.
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> Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
> That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.
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It's about a technology built by a well known technology company, why wouldn't it be on HN?
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What did the 170 citizens detained in immigration raids last year do that was illegal?
If it was illegal, why were charges either dropped or never filed to begin with for the majority of these cases?
If you are open to understanding why people are so upset, do your mind the favor of reading this high quality reporting on the treatment of US Citizens by ICE
https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
I'm sure there will be mistakes made. But it's for the collective good of the country.
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If they were only arresting people not in the country illegally and doing it with constitutionally guaranteed due process then you may have a point. But they aren't. They are arresting, injuring, killing people who are exercising their constitutional rights. ICE has no shred of credibility left. They are not making things safer.
I personally know people in Minneapolis (where I live) who's constitutional rights have been trampled on by ICE. ICE is the enemy, all who support them have blood on their hands.
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Frick Trump and frick all the pieces of dump that vote red! I hope you and all your loved ones de a horrible deth. You are ruining the entire world!
Why am I being downvoted? Has HN been invaded by Trump's scum too?
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Why is this allowed to reach the front page, but any technical talk relating to the slaughter of Iranians gets quietly removed?
It's possible that different people flag the discussions you're referring to. That said, it looks like there have been ~7 threads with over 100 points on Iran in the last week alone: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=tru...
If anything, it appears that Minnesota/Minneapolis are under-discussed relative to Iran, no?
Good question. But a lazy parsing of your comment might imply you want this post also flagged.