That's not what's happening. There wouldn't be the backlash if they were primarily deporting "the worst of the worst", as they promised, using due process. Instead they're targeting everyone, including people here legally and in many cases U.S. citizens, without due process, in the cruelest and most over-the-top way possible.
Ignore the worst of the worst framing. Even a person who is unobjectionable but who is in the country without legal authorization is fine to be deported. I'm not going to pearl clutch over it. Estimates say that up 3-5% of the entire american population has no legal right to be in this country. I'm not a perfectionist. A few 100,000 would be totally reasonable to say 'good enough' at. But multiple millions? Not really sure where this line of argumentation goes really. The US government has made it very clear for a year now that people without authorization to be here should leave. They've even offered monetary incentives to go. At this point, people flaunting the law are doing so openly. Most of these people are not even refugees from war-torn regions. They're from our neighboring country of Mexico which has no war going on.
It's both the fact that they're going after people here legally and even U.S. citizens, and the brutality and unconstitutional nature of their tactics. They are literally going house to house kicking in doors without a warrant. They're racial profiling. The ICE agents are completely out of control as their recruitment standards are nonexistent and higher-ups are signaling that they can do literally whatever they want, including killing people, and they'll face no consequences. I don't understand how any sane person can support it, much less the "don't tread on me" crowd.
Detaining and/or deporting people here illegally to their home countries with due process: OK
Detaining, deporting, and/or killing people here illegally, legally, and U.S. citizens, without due process, to private detention camps or third countries: NOT OK
Sure, that's extremism. That has nothing to do with ICE using software to identify illegal migrants. The argument in the article was not that the software often gets it wrong, but that -- even if it were right -- something would be wrong with it.
Even trying to follow the existing law is punishable by exile without trial. You can go to all your legally appointed court dates, follow every rule in the book, and get snatched and deported from the courtroom the next minute.
If you are in this country illegally to begin with, then yes, going to court and following procedure will still result in deportation and a permanent ban on entry. While following the post-crime procedure is indeed laudable, the prescribed punishment for flaunting the immigration laws of the US is being barred from entry.
If you are in this country illegally to begin with, then yes, going to court and following procedure will still result in deportation and a permanent ban on entry.
The outcome of an immigration hearing is supposed to be up to the judge, not some masked goons skulking in the hallway outside the courtroom.
You are carrying water for genuinely-terrible people. Why are you doing that?
(2) -- why can't you raid a church? A church is not a special place. America is not a theocracy which gives sacrosanct respect to some portions of land.
(3) The US has every right to revoke legal status with no other reason than it doesn't make sense for the United States. We can talk about how it's done, but that's rarely the issue at hand in these debates.
(4) Not sure what this means
(6) Politicians say incorrect things all the time to appeal to their base.
I think a more comprehensive and simpler explanation is that the people protesting just hate this administration. They don't go about making lists like this and then think they need to go protest. They just see a guy they despise and start protesting. Hate is really powerful.
Hate is powerful, and I think that's part of what drives protests into riot. And some people to protests honestly. But I think the root of it is anger at the situation, not just the leader. And it doesn't negate the reasonableness of the concerns and worries people have.
I know one of the lead protest organizers where I live. They have a long list of things. Things they feel are bad and want reversed. And having known them for a long time, I can say they are internally consistent, and would be out there protesting if it was a Democratic president doing this, or more likeable person doing this. It's less about the hate, and more about concern for the direction things are going, and blatant disregard for the law.
People who are in the country illegally undermine the rule of law and make people feel unheard leaving people to elect demagogues like trump. I predicted exactly this outcome with the election of Obama and his policies. How can the supposedly educated be so bad at applying history.
> People who are in the country illegally undermine the rule of law
No, they do not. Quite the opposite, they want to live their lives quietly and normally like everyone else.
The only law they "undermine" is the one forbidding them to living in a place due to a birth right. Civil disobedience to unjust laws like that is correct and moral.
> make people feel unheard leaving people to elect demagogues like trump
Disagree. IMO the biggest reasons for Trump's election were inflation and raising living costs. Under those conditions, picking a group of people to elect as the "enemy" is a tact to win elections, but has nothing to do with the underlying cause for the bad conditions in the first place.
People have been deported for decades but the manner in which deportations occur is important. There’s a world of difference between law enforcement and these brownshirts.
That's not what's happening. There wouldn't be the backlash if they were primarily deporting "the worst of the worst", as they promised, using due process. Instead they're targeting everyone, including people here legally and in many cases U.S. citizens, without due process, in the cruelest and most over-the-top way possible.
Ignore the worst of the worst framing. Even a person who is unobjectionable but who is in the country without legal authorization is fine to be deported. I'm not going to pearl clutch over it. Estimates say that up 3-5% of the entire american population has no legal right to be in this country. I'm not a perfectionist. A few 100,000 would be totally reasonable to say 'good enough' at. But multiple millions? Not really sure where this line of argumentation goes really. The US government has made it very clear for a year now that people without authorization to be here should leave. They've even offered monetary incentives to go. At this point, people flaunting the law are doing so openly. Most of these people are not even refugees from war-torn regions. They're from our neighboring country of Mexico which has no war going on.
It's both the fact that they're going after people here legally and even U.S. citizens, and the brutality and unconstitutional nature of their tactics. They are literally going house to house kicking in doors without a warrant. They're racial profiling. The ICE agents are completely out of control as their recruitment standards are nonexistent and higher-ups are signaling that they can do literally whatever they want, including killing people, and they'll face no consequences. I don't understand how any sane person can support it, much less the "don't tread on me" crowd.
Detaining and/or deporting people here illegally to their home countries with due process: OK
Detaining, deporting, and/or killing people here illegally, legally, and U.S. citizens, without due process, to private detention camps or third countries: NOT OK
I have a friend whose parents were just (incorrectly) detained by ICE, and had to pay a $3000 administrative fee to be released.
That _is_ the extremism. It's here.
Sure, that's extremism. That has nothing to do with ICE using software to identify illegal migrants. The argument in the article was not that the software often gets it wrong, but that -- even if it were right -- something would be wrong with it.
Even trying to follow the existing law is punishable by exile without trial. You can go to all your legally appointed court dates, follow every rule in the book, and get snatched and deported from the courtroom the next minute.
If you are in this country illegally to begin with, then yes, going to court and following procedure will still result in deportation and a permanent ban on entry. While following the post-crime procedure is indeed laudable, the prescribed punishment for flaunting the immigration laws of the US is being barred from entry.
If you are in this country illegally to begin with, then yes, going to court and following procedure will still result in deportation and a permanent ban on entry.
The outcome of an immigration hearing is supposed to be up to the judge, not some masked goons skulking in the hallway outside the courtroom.
You are carrying water for genuinely-terrible people. Why are you doing that?
> the idea of deporting people who have no legal status in this country is immediately branded Nazi
It's not just that idea though. Plenty of presidents have done that without pushback. It's that idea combined with:
* Rhetoric dehumanizing the immigrants
* Raiding churches, courts, jobs, etc
* Revoking legal status of immigrants
* Reducing training time for new hires
* Detaining U.S. citizens and threatening them
* Saying it'll help the U.S. citizens, when data shows it doesn't
I can agree with (1) and (5).
(2) -- why can't you raid a church? A church is not a special place. America is not a theocracy which gives sacrosanct respect to some portions of land.
(3) The US has every right to revoke legal status with no other reason than it doesn't make sense for the United States. We can talk about how it's done, but that's rarely the issue at hand in these debates.
(4) Not sure what this means
(6) Politicians say incorrect things all the time to appeal to their base.
Kidnapping people literally going to immigration hearings.
I think a more comprehensive and simpler explanation is that the people protesting just hate this administration. They don't go about making lists like this and then think they need to go protest. They just see a guy they despise and start protesting. Hate is really powerful.
Hate is powerful, and I think that's part of what drives protests into riot. And some people to protests honestly. But I think the root of it is anger at the situation, not just the leader. And it doesn't negate the reasonableness of the concerns and worries people have.
I know one of the lead protest organizers where I live. They have a long list of things. Things they feel are bad and want reversed. And having known them for a long time, I can say they are internally consistent, and would be out there protesting if it was a Democratic president doing this, or more likeable person doing this. It's less about the hate, and more about concern for the direction things are going, and blatant disregard for the law.
> the idea of deporting people who have no legal status in this country is immediately branded Nazi
Because that idea consists of harming someone over their birth circumstances, rather than any objective harm they may have done.
People who are in the country illegally undermine the rule of law and make people feel unheard leaving people to elect demagogues like trump. I predicted exactly this outcome with the election of Obama and his policies. How can the supposedly educated be so bad at applying history.
> People who are in the country illegally undermine the rule of law
No, they do not. Quite the opposite, they want to live their lives quietly and normally like everyone else.
The only law they "undermine" is the one forbidding them to living in a place due to a birth right. Civil disobedience to unjust laws like that is correct and moral.
> make people feel unheard leaving people to elect demagogues like trump
Disagree. IMO the biggest reasons for Trump's election were inflation and raising living costs. Under those conditions, picking a group of people to elect as the "enemy" is a tact to win elections, but has nothing to do with the underlying cause for the bad conditions in the first place.
People have been deported for decades but the manner in which deportations occur is important. There’s a world of difference between law enforcement and these brownshirts.
My great-grand parents woke one day with status of illegals. Shortly after that they have been included in mass deportations to Poland.
Some people have asked how something like that could happened. Thanks for your comment. Now I can sand them this link as an answer.