1. The last 3 cars from the Iryo train (Frecciarossa 1000) derailed for unknown reasons. It's a straight line, so this is extremely rare.
2. The Renfe train (Alvia) didn't have time to break and hit the derailed trains from Iryo, the two first cars derail as a consequence of the impact.
3. The Iryo train(Frecciarossa 1000), that caused the accident, was manufactured in 2022 and it passed a technical inspection just 4 days ago.
4. The renovation of this specific part of the infrastructure finished on May 2025, so it's practically new.
Spanish high speed trains are one of the best in the world and it had plenty investment from governments of different sign over the years. This has nothing to do with the regional network (Cercanias) and the local struggles in certain regions.
IMHO, this is a horribly timed accidental technical issue.
The current government has been found to be cutting corners in maintaining the Cercanías commuter railway network[1]. Indeed last year some machinists had to derail a train to stop it from crashing other[2].
The former Transport Minister is jailed because of corruption in public contracts, and hiring prostitutes[3][4].
The government is doing a poor job maintaining the current railway network.
Every government in Spain for the last decade or more has been cutting corners in maintaining the rail networks: high speed (where this accident happened), the conventional network and commuter rail. You failed to mention the fact our budget has been extended since 2023, that the actual track where this happened was given maintenance under a year ago (per the minister, [^1]) and the train that first derailed (Iryo's ETR1000) was last checked 4 days ago.
Regarding the former Minister (Ábalos), he's awaiting trial and not yet convicted (even though, IMHO he is probably guilty), and he hasn't been in the ministry since 2021[^2] so it makes no sense to bring it up when he has been out for nearly 4.5 years now.
I think you are just stirring the pot and cherry picking news.
"Cercanias" is a different rail network to the one where the accident happened (high-speed). Also the political issue that you are mentioning happened 5 years ago on a single individual not directly affiliated to the organization that manages the rail network. Please let's be serious and bring constructive things to the conversation
What does the "Cercanías" conmuter network in Madrid have to do with the high-speed AVE network where the accident took place? They are two different networks, and even if the first one isn't well maintained as you claim, it doesn't mean the other one has to be in the same situation.
Also, it's been four and a half years since the former Transport Minister who is in jail left the office (july 2021).
> The current government has been found to be cutting corners
Where do the articles mention that the current government has been cutting corners? In fact, they have increased the current investment plan on the Cercanías commuter railway network to more than 7,000 million euro, from 5.000 million that the previous government planned[1].
Now, this isn't to that the current political landscape is fine because ( as portrayed by the last articles ) is totally unacceptable, and of course that affects the rail network negatively.
The Cercanías commuter railway network is in a state of disarray[1]. There has been a mismanagement of funds in the railway authority[2][3][4].
Maldita.es is founded by ex-employees of La Sexta, a TV channel known to be politically aligned with the socialist party (currently in the government).
I can tell that you really don't like the current government but you should relax a little.
There is an accident with death people, maybe people still trapped there and the causes are still unknown. Too early to start playing politics, don't you think?
> The accident occurred near Atocha station, on a curve where signage indicates a speed limit of 45 kilometers per hour. However, sources consulted by this newspaper assert that the train, out of control, easily approached speeds of 90 to 100 kilometers per hour, ultimately resulting in the derailment. [...] Two mechanics who were inside the wrecked train escaped injury.
Any indication they deliberately derailed the train?
Anyone serious about rail engineering or safety isn't excitedly dashing off comments pointing fingers before the dust has even settled. Those who are doing that - such as the comment I am replying to - should be ignored
For many years the Spanish state-owned company RENFE had a monopoly on Spain's huge high speed rail network. However their high prices, inconvenient schedules and poor customer service were often criticized, and so when, to the annoyance of RENFE and many spanish politicians, additional foreign operators entered the market on the key Madrid - Barcelona route, ridership doubled whilst ticket prices halved.
So I would standby for this tragedy to be used for political purposes to try and get foreign operators banned from Spanish tracks, regardless of the facts of the matter.
Foreign operators are mandated by the EU, they can't be banned. Spain has been one of the first countries to allow foreign high speed operators (unlike other European countries that did attempt to delay their entrance as much as possible
France, for example, has been trying to delay allowing Renfe (Spanish operator) to operate through the country as much as possible, while their public operator SNCF (branded as Ouigo) has been able to operate here since 2021.
Unless there is evidence that the accident was caused by the Iryo train, I wouldn’t be so fast to blame the private companies on a decaying infrastructure.
There are plenty of cases of lack of maintenance in the railway network.
> So I would standby for this tragedy to be used for political purposes
This is an ignorant opinion. For multiple reasons.
Derailing under these circumstances is a track issue, which means ADIF, the state's infrastructure maintainer, is under suspicion. Not operators, the state's infrastructure maintainer.
Liberalization of the railway sector is an EU-wide mandate. It's not some whimsical slip of a single country's leadership.
Years ago there was an AVE derailment in Santiago de Compostela. No one banned RENFE from the lines.
The machinists complained for years about the curve of Angrois[1][2], and indeed no security assessment was done on the curve[3]. The government during that time (of the same party than this one) did nothing.
11 years later, the machinist was charged with unwilling homicide and sentenced to 2 years in prison, and the ex-chief of security sentenced to 2 years of prison as well[4].
If you’re interested in this kind of thing, look up plainly difficult on youtube. He has more videos on train crashes than I’ve seen, and I’m embarrassed how many I’ve seen. Here’s one to get you started: https://youtu.be/VV2rIHEp5AM?si=sSBT9s49PqbLTGbt
There are a lot of safety lessons embedded in these videos, which is why I like them. I also did a double take when I heard "semaphore"; its history goes back far longer than the ~century of software engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore
Oh you silly duck! Semafor is a common word in a handful of other languages for things like traffic lights and such. I had to do a double take when I first saw it in a programming class.
Also hope you’re doing well it’s been a minute since our paths crossed on gdnet.
"Semaphore" is (old) Greek and means "sign (sema) bearer (phore)", and actually the meaning in railways and computing is more or less the same: in computing, a semaphore signals if a resource is in use; in railways, the resource is a segment of a railway line, and the user is a train.
I don't want to speculate on this crash but my mental model for these things is that there's always a handful of factors that all align and converge to create an accident. Some factors are deep-rooted - and point to decisions made years ago - sometimes related to company culture. Theres always an element of operator error: someone ignored something due to inattention or sleepiness.
Taking the commuter train to and from Dublin, sometimes another train on the other direction passes and it's a bit unnerving. I cannot imagine such a collision between two high speed trains :(
You have to divide that by miles travelled to get a meaningful number - trains will still be a lot safer, but comparing oranges to apples doesn't help the argument
The Italians designed it but won't run it at more than 300km/h in Italy citing local infrastructure concerns. I guess that leaves other countries to find the edge cases. I'll be interested to find out how fast it was going during the crash.
AnsaldoBreda did also manufacture the Fyra trains for the short-lived high-speed trains here in The Netherlands. After three trains lost parts in the first month, it was banned from operations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyra
Looks like a Frecciarossa 1000 derailed in 2020 but it was due to a manufacturer defect in a track switch replaced the night before.
The defect was not caught by the manufacturer or the system operator. It was due to two crossed wires in an assembly.
I know a lot more engineering goes into these trains due to the higher stakes. Japan’s high speed rail hasn’t had a fatal accident in 60 years. I’m wondering what the cause of this will turn out to be.
Actually the defect was detected by the operators, who installed it that night. They disabled the switch, but apparently this didn't reach the day shift.
Japan's shinkansen system has never had a fatal accident, except for one incident in 1995 where someone got killed at a station because he was caught in a door as the train departed the station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishima_Station_incident). No one has ever died in a derailing, crash, etc.
For a bit of context according to the OECD 2023 Spain had ~1800 on the road during the previous year, so that's about 5/day. There are more deaths on the road in Spain in a couple of weeks than this tragic accident. Either way it's too many deaths obviously but I want to highlight what a freak event this is compared to a more popular mode of transportation.
Train crashes like this are _so_ rare. It's not as safe as flying but AFAICT in rich countries it's the same rough order of magnitude in terms of danger level.
I don't have data but I would imagine crashes on these high speed lines (which always seem to be run at a higher level of professionalism than the general networks) are rarest of all.
I don't think it's a good use of mental energy to plan for a crash like this. You're better off using your brain cycles on hygiene or not losing your luggage.
Most railway deaths in the EU are due to unauthorized people on the tracks or due to crossings. The actual number of passengers deaths has been really low in the past years.
In the EU it's safer than flying, with 0.5 deaths per 100 billion km/ passenger vs 3 deaths per 100 billion kms/ passenger. However, since an airplane flies at, let's say, six times the average speed of a train, the actual probability of dying during a 1-hour trip is almost 40 times more on a plane than on a train.
Brain cycles aren’t a limited supply. Besides, you’ll get to feel a nice jolt of serotonin when you remember to sit backwards.
> I would imagine crashes on these high speed lines (which always seem to be run at a higher level of professionalism than the general networks) are rarest of all
If this crash is anything like the other ones, you might be surprised. Safety complacency tends to cause maintenance failures. Plus the low speed lines are less deadly since the total energy is proportional to velocity squared, and v is low.
In other words, it might be more helpful to look at it as "if they’re run at a higher level of standards, it’s because they have to be".
Statistically you’re probably right, but considering how many brain cycles we waste on non-essentials, it’s just as fun to waste them on this. That way you can start a nerdy conversation with your travel companions, and they can learn to travel without you next time.
This is so rare that it's not really worth thinking about, as a passenger (of course, it should be on the _operators_ minds). You're far more likely to die getting to the station.
I feel like airplanes should be designed this way. Outside of takeoff and landing it would be pretty hard to even notice the difference, once you're seated.
At least BEA airliners used to have quite a few backward facing seats, up to half the plane.
However, there were a number of problems - people didn't like sitting in them, people didn't like hearing that their seat wasn't as safe as the others, you can't get as many rows in unless you turn them all backwards, and the structure needs to be designed differently so then you need more spares.
Huh. I'd never thought of this. If that is actually meaningfully beneficial, I wonder if they'd design self driving cars with the seats facing backwards, given there's no longer a necessity to look at the road.
(edit: I guess it's more of no-brainer on a train/bus where you don't have a seat belt)
Not the author, but I think there was some research and it's indeed better for you if you have head support, to be facing back towards the front. If prevents a whole range of injuries, from your neck, to becoming a projectile yourself.
But it's really theoretical, and does not account for the passenger in front of you headed head-first into your throat.
PS: I laughed hard that xlbuttplug2 is answering to deadbabe. The internet lives!
Sitting backwards is beneficial if looking at accidents.
But sitting backwards is very very uncomfortable if there is any kind of uneven acceleration, bumps, swaying, rolling, curvy tracks or whatever. Humans need to look forward at the horizon to get their visual stimuli aligned with their motion/balance sense in the inner ear. If that alignment isn't there, you will get seasick. Backwards makes this even worse.
Babies don't suffer from this, because closing your eyes helps, and infants don't have as strong a reaction to motions anyways, due to them usually being carried by their parents until walking age. So reverse baby seats only work for babies.
Infant car seats face backwards, they recommend backwards facing for a long as possible (until the kid is too big to fit comfortably in a backwards facing position).
It's incredibly beneficial. However many people dislike it and want to be facing the direction they are moving in, so best case is probably a train-style 4-seater. Which 2 seats facing forward and 2 backwards.
Please don't post like this on HN. This kind of comment is a generic tangent (and a rather ghoulish one), that can be made about any tragedy; yes, no matter how bad something is, there's always something worse. It's the fact that this is an unusual occurrence that makes it noteworthy. The guidelines ask us to converse curiously and avoid generic tangents and shallow dismissals. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
FWIW: a single car crash killing 21 people would still be newsworthy in America. And I think if you math it out with something per capita equivalent, this would actually be an exceptionally bad day/incident for the US.
But of course you're not wrong, trains are vastly safer than private cars. If anyone uses this as evidence against having a proper rail system, they're ignorant.
But - until someone does that, there's no reason to make this about the US or cars vs. trains. It's borderline offensive to reflexively politicize this before anyone else had; it almost feels like you're intentionally trying to sow conflict, here.
One thing I learned working on a system that did train positioning for the 7 Line subway in NYC is that train systems are a lot more complicated than just straight lines. They are complicated networks with custom signaling and the trains don't necessarily travel on the usual side in the usual direction at all times.
That said, in this particular case it basically was just two straight lines side by side and one of the trains derailed and travelled into the path of the other track.
Trains don't often derail on straight sections, likely either someone fucked up really bad on rail maintenance or someone sabotaged the rail.
What we know so far:
1. The last 3 cars from the Iryo train (Frecciarossa 1000) derailed for unknown reasons. It's a straight line, so this is extremely rare.
2. The Renfe train (Alvia) didn't have time to break and hit the derailed trains from Iryo, the two first cars derail as a consequence of the impact.
3. The Iryo train(Frecciarossa 1000), that caused the accident, was manufactured in 2022 and it passed a technical inspection just 4 days ago.
4. The renovation of this specific part of the infrastructure finished on May 2025, so it's practically new.
Spanish high speed trains are one of the best in the world and it had plenty investment from governments of different sign over the years. This has nothing to do with the regional network (Cercanias) and the local struggles in certain regions.
IMHO, this is a horribly timed accidental technical issue.
https://english.elpais.com/spain/2026-01-19/at-least-39-dead...
https://archive.ph/Ase0v
The current government has been found to be cutting corners in maintaining the Cercanías commuter railway network[1]. Indeed last year some machinists had to derail a train to stop it from crashing other[2].
The former Transport Minister is jailed because of corruption in public contracts, and hiring prostitutes[3][4].
The government is doing a poor job maintaining the current railway network.
[1]: https://www.eldebate.com/espana/madrid/20251119/cercanias-ma...
[2]: https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/tren-accidentado-renfe-reco...
[3]: https://www.infobae.com/espana/2025/12/23/adif-altero-puntua...
[4]: https://www.elespanol.com/espana/tribunales/20250412/koldo-e...
Every government in Spain for the last decade or more has been cutting corners in maintaining the rail networks: high speed (where this accident happened), the conventional network and commuter rail. You failed to mention the fact our budget has been extended since 2023, that the actual track where this happened was given maintenance under a year ago (per the minister, [^1]) and the train that first derailed (Iryo's ETR1000) was last checked 4 days ago.
Regarding the former Minister (Ábalos), he's awaiting trial and not yet convicted (even though, IMHO he is probably guilty), and he hasn't been in the ministry since 2021[^2] so it makes no sense to bring it up when he has been out for nearly 4.5 years now.
[^1]: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2026/01/18/osca... [^2]: https://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/articulo/otros/jose-lu...
According to current minister, the issues come from others before him, so it indeed makes sense to bring that up.
Blaming others for the current underinvestment of the railway network is disingenuous.
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I think you are just stirring the pot and cherry picking news.
"Cercanias" is a different rail network to the one where the accident happened (high-speed). Also the political issue that you are mentioning happened 5 years ago on a single individual not directly affiliated to the organization that manages the rail network. Please let's be serious and bring constructive things to the conversation
What does the "Cercanías" conmuter network in Madrid have to do with the high-speed AVE network where the accident took place? They are two different networks, and even if the first one isn't well maintained as you claim, it doesn't mean the other one has to be in the same situation.
Also, it's been four and a half years since the former Transport Minister who is in jail left the office (july 2021).
> The current government has been found to be cutting corners
Where do the articles mention that the current government has been cutting corners? In fact, they have increased the current investment plan on the Cercanías commuter railway network to more than 7,000 million euro, from 5.000 million that the previous government planned[1].
Now, this isn't to that the current political landscape is fine because ( as portrayed by the last articles ) is totally unacceptable, and of course that affects the rail network negatively.
[1]: https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20231212/cercanias-madri...
The Cercanías commuter railway network is in a state of disarray[1]. There has been a mismanagement of funds in the railway authority[2][3][4].
Maldita.es is founded by ex-employees of La Sexta, a TV channel known to be politically aligned with the socialist party (currently in the government).
[1]: https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia/la-carencia-de-repuestos-...
[2]: https://www.eldebate.com/espana/20250626/marido-pardo-vera-f...
[3]: https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/5729873/0/quien-es-isabel-p...
[4]: https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20250717/cese-discreto-alto...
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Quick reminder that more spending does not equal better spending.
I can tell that you really don't like the current government but you should relax a little.
There is an accident with death people, maybe people still trapped there and the causes are still unknown. Too early to start playing politics, don't you think?
I am relaxed. Are you? Is this a poor way of attempting to attack my arguments either an ad hominem?
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From [2] (machine-translated):
> The accident occurred near Atocha station, on a curve where signage indicates a speed limit of 45 kilometers per hour. However, sources consulted by this newspaper assert that the train, out of control, easily approached speeds of 90 to 100 kilometers per hour, ultimately resulting in the derailment. [...] Two mechanics who were inside the wrecked train escaped injury.
Any indication they deliberately derailed the train?
Edit: yes! E.g.
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2024/10/22/railway-w...
(Non-specific?)
https://euroweeklynews.com/2024/10/26/investigation-reveals-...
(Says the train was diverted away from others, rather than deliberately derailed maybe)
Anyone serious about rail engineering or safety isn't excitedly dashing off comments pointing fingers before the dust has even settled. Those who are doing that - such as the comment I am replying to - should be ignored
>Indeed last year some machinists had to derail a train to stop it from crashing other[2].
They were pulling it uphill with another unit, and the coupler broke so it rolled backwards and flipped at the curve.
Im what context it is normal to derail a train to avoid a crash with another one?
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information war.
Is information war telling that the railway transport authority was aware of issues in the accident location for years?[1]
[1]: https://www.elespanol.com/reportajes/20260119/adif-notifico-...
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For many years the Spanish state-owned company RENFE had a monopoly on Spain's huge high speed rail network. However their high prices, inconvenient schedules and poor customer service were often criticized, and so when, to the annoyance of RENFE and many spanish politicians, additional foreign operators entered the market on the key Madrid - Barcelona route, ridership doubled whilst ticket prices halved.
So I would standby for this tragedy to be used for political purposes to try and get foreign operators banned from Spanish tracks, regardless of the facts of the matter.
Foreign operators are mandated by the EU, they can't be banned. Spain has been one of the first countries to allow foreign high speed operators (unlike other European countries that did attempt to delay their entrance as much as possible
France, for example, has been trying to delay allowing Renfe (Spanish operator) to operate through the country as much as possible, while their public operator SNCF (branded as Ouigo) has been able to operate here since 2021.
Unless there is evidence that the accident was caused by the Iryo train, I wouldn’t be so fast to blame the private companies on a decaying infrastructure.
There are plenty of cases of lack of maintenance in the railway network.
> Unless there is evidence that the accident was caused by the Iryo train
I'd say the same about the railway network. We don't know what happened yet.
4 replies →
> So I would standby for this tragedy to be used for political purposes
This is an ignorant opinion. For multiple reasons.
Derailing under these circumstances is a track issue, which means ADIF, the state's infrastructure maintainer, is under suspicion. Not operators, the state's infrastructure maintainer.
Liberalization of the railway sector is an EU-wide mandate. It's not some whimsical slip of a single country's leadership.
Years ago there was an AVE derailment in Santiago de Compostela. No one banned RENFE from the lines.
The machinists complained for years about the curve of Angrois[1][2], and indeed no security assessment was done on the curve[3]. The government during that time (of the same party than this one) did nothing.
11 years later, the machinist was charged with unwilling homicide and sentenced to 2 years in prison, and the ex-chief of security sentenced to 2 years of prison as well[4].
[1] https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/07/24/5b570dadca4741b1698...
[2]: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/galicia/2022/11/22/enf...
[3]: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/galicia/2022/11/30/cur...
[4]: https://www.elcorreogallego.es/santiago/2024/12/25/ano-sente...
1 reply →
>Derailing under these circumstances is a track issue, which means ADIF, the state's infrastructure maintainer, is under suspicion.
This is the most likely outcome, but it is not as cut-and-dried as you are presenting it.
It could be a broken rail weld, it could be track sabotage, it could be a broken wheel or bogie... we don't know yet.
If you’re interested in this kind of thing, look up plainly difficult on youtube. He has more videos on train crashes than I’ve seen, and I’m embarrassed how many I’ve seen. Here’s one to get you started: https://youtu.be/VV2rIHEp5AM?si=sSBT9s49PqbLTGbt
There are a lot of safety lessons embedded in these videos, which is why I like them. I also did a double take when I heard "semaphore"; its history goes back far longer than the ~century of software engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore
Oh you silly duck! Semafor is a common word in a handful of other languages for things like traffic lights and such. I had to do a double take when I first saw it in a programming class.
Also hope you’re doing well it’s been a minute since our paths crossed on gdnet.
"Semaphore" is (old) Greek and means "sign (sema) bearer (phore)", and actually the meaning in railways and computing is more or less the same: in computing, a semaphore signals if a resource is in use; in railways, the resource is a segment of a railway line, and the user is a train.
[flagged]
4 replies →
The basics of mutual exclusion algorithms were developed for railway timetabling and track signalling.
No cause is known yet, but based on the videos, what’s the most likely reason for crashes? Bad tracks? Some human error resulting in collision?
I don't want to speculate on this crash but my mental model for these things is that there's always a handful of factors that all align and converge to create an accident. Some factors are deep-rooted - and point to decisions made years ago - sometimes related to company culture. Theres always an element of operator error: someone ignored something due to inattention or sleepiness.
What's the befit of speculating at this point? Let the investigators investigate, and hopefully some lessons will be learned.
1 reply →
Taking the commuter train to and from Dublin, sometimes another train on the other direction passes and it's a bit unnerving. I cannot imagine such a collision between two high speed trains :(
As a reference, ~1500-2000 people die every year due to cars in Spain.
Relative comparison for 2023:
United States: 7.83×10⁻⁹ deaths/km (≈ 7.83 deaths per billion km)
Spain: 4.41×10⁻⁹ deaths/km (≈ 4.41 deaths per billion km)
Sweden: 2.79×10⁻⁹ deaths/km (≈ 2.79 deaths per billion km)
You have to divide that by miles travelled to get a meaningful number - trains will still be a lot safer, but comparing oranges to apples doesn't help the argument
The train in question is a Frecciarossa 1000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frecciarossa_1000
The Italians designed it but won't run it at more than 300km/h in Italy citing local infrastructure concerns. I guess that leaves other countries to find the edge cases. I'll be interested to find out how fast it was going during the crash.
AnsaldoBreda did also manufacture the Fyra trains for the short-lived high-speed trains here in The Netherlands. After three trains lost parts in the first month, it was banned from operations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyra
Looks like a Frecciarossa 1000 derailed in 2020 but it was due to a manufacturer defect in a track switch replaced the night before.
The defect was not caught by the manufacturer or the system operator. It was due to two crossed wires in an assembly.
I know a lot more engineering goes into these trains due to the higher stakes. Japan’s high speed rail hasn’t had a fatal accident in 60 years. I’m wondering what the cause of this will turn out to be.
Actually the defect was detected by the operators, who installed it that night. They disabled the switch, but apparently this didn't reach the day shift.
Japan's shinkansen system has never had a fatal accident, except for one incident in 1995 where someone got killed at a station because he was caught in a door as the train departed the station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishima_Station_incident). No one has ever died in a derailing, crash, etc.
Updated to 39 people now, but probably the number can still go up
Terrible and condolences to anybody affected.
For a bit of context according to the OECD 2023 Spain had ~1800 on the road during the previous year, so that's about 5/day. There are more deaths on the road in Spain in a couple of weeks than this tragic accident. Either way it's too many deaths obviously but I want to highlight what a freak event this is compared to a more popular mode of transportation.
Edit : Motivation behind that clarification https://ourworldindata.org/does-the-news-reflect-what-we-die... read some months ago but that stuck with me.
Blame game has started. Minister saying the track was renewed in May. Train operator saying the train was inspected 4 days ago.
I'm in Spain currently. Very sad news.
Always try to sit in seats where your back is toward the direction of motion.
Train crashes like this are _so_ rare. It's not as safe as flying but AFAICT in rich countries it's the same rough order of magnitude in terms of danger level.
I don't have data but I would imagine crashes on these high speed lines (which always seem to be run at a higher level of professionalism than the general networks) are rarest of all.
I don't think it's a good use of mental energy to plan for a crash like this. You're better off using your brain cycles on hygiene or not losing your luggage.
>It's not as safe as flying
In France and Japan, HSR has had zero fatalities in the entire period of operation.
In China, HSR had AFAIR one fatal crash, with 40 fatalities. Per passenger-mile, Chinese HSR is twice as safe as US air travel.
5 replies →
> I don't have data
Most railway deaths in the EU are due to unauthorized people on the tracks or due to crossings. The actual number of passengers deaths has been really low in the past years.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
> It's not as safe as flying
In the EU it's safer than flying, with 0.5 deaths per 100 billion km/ passenger vs 3 deaths per 100 billion kms/ passenger. However, since an airplane flies at, let's say, six times the average speed of a train, the actual probability of dying during a 1-hour trip is almost 40 times more on a plane than on a train.
Brain cycles aren’t a limited supply. Besides, you’ll get to feel a nice jolt of serotonin when you remember to sit backwards.
> I would imagine crashes on these high speed lines (which always seem to be run at a higher level of professionalism than the general networks) are rarest of all
If this crash is anything like the other ones, you might be surprised. Safety complacency tends to cause maintenance failures. Plus the low speed lines are less deadly since the total energy is proportional to velocity squared, and v is low.
In other words, it might be more helpful to look at it as "if they’re run at a higher level of standards, it’s because they have to be".
Statistically you’re probably right, but considering how many brain cycles we waste on non-essentials, it’s just as fun to waste them on this. That way you can start a nerdy conversation with your travel companions, and they can learn to travel without you next time.
3 replies →
This is so rare that it's not really worth thinking about, as a passenger (of course, it should be on the _operators_ minds). You're far more likely to die getting to the station.
I feel like airplanes should be designed this way. Outside of takeoff and landing it would be pretty hard to even notice the difference, once you're seated.
At least BEA airliners used to have quite a few backward facing seats, up to half the plane.
However, there were a number of problems - people didn't like sitting in them, people didn't like hearing that their seat wasn't as safe as the others, you can't get as many rows in unless you turn them all backwards, and the structure needs to be designed differently so then you need more spares.
C5 Galaxy (US military jumbo cargo plane) has a passenger compartment with rear facing seats.
Huh. I'd never thought of this. If that is actually meaningfully beneficial, I wonder if they'd design self driving cars with the seats facing backwards, given there's no longer a necessity to look at the road.
(edit: I guess it's more of no-brainer on a train/bus where you don't have a seat belt)
Not the author, but I think there was some research and it's indeed better for you if you have head support, to be facing back towards the front. If prevents a whole range of injuries, from your neck, to becoming a projectile yourself.
But it's really theoretical, and does not account for the passenger in front of you headed head-first into your throat.
PS: I laughed hard that xlbuttplug2 is answering to deadbabe. The internet lives!
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Sitting backwards is beneficial if looking at accidents.
But sitting backwards is very very uncomfortable if there is any kind of uneven acceleration, bumps, swaying, rolling, curvy tracks or whatever. Humans need to look forward at the horizon to get their visual stimuli aligned with their motion/balance sense in the inner ear. If that alignment isn't there, you will get seasick. Backwards makes this even worse.
Babies don't suffer from this, because closing your eyes helps, and infants don't have as strong a reaction to motions anyways, due to them usually being carried by their parents until walking age. So reverse baby seats only work for babies.
Disclaimer I work for Zoox, but here is us crash testing https://youtu.be/597C9OwV0o4
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Infant car seats face backwards, they recommend backwards facing for a long as possible (until the kid is too big to fit comfortably in a backwards facing position).
It's incredibly beneficial. However many people dislike it and want to be facing the direction they are moving in, so best case is probably a train-style 4-seater. Which 2 seats facing forward and 2 backwards.
Or sit in the back of the train rather than the front
Middle.
It was the rear carriage which derailed
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How would a cyberattack cause a train to derail on a straight stretch of track?
From a derailed train on a straight stretch of track... no. Very likely maintenance related somehow.
Spanish article from LaVanguardia states that the train was rather new and the track recently maintained.
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Please don't post like this on HN. This kind of comment is a generic tangent (and a rather ghoulish one), that can be made about any tragedy; yes, no matter how bad something is, there's always something worse. It's the fact that this is an unusual occurrence that makes it noteworthy. The guidelines ask us to converse curiously and avoid generic tangents and shallow dismissals. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
FWIW: a single car crash killing 21 people would still be newsworthy in America. And I think if you math it out with something per capita equivalent, this would actually be an exceptionally bad day/incident for the US.
But of course you're not wrong, trains are vastly safer than private cars. If anyone uses this as evidence against having a proper rail system, they're ignorant.
But - until someone does that, there's no reason to make this about the US or cars vs. trains. It's borderline offensive to reflexively politicize this before anyone else had; it almost feels like you're intentionally trying to sow conflict, here.
~107 people die per day from car accidents in the USA [0].
0. Per 2024 stats from the NHTSA (https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-estimates-39345-t...)
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https://international-railway-safety-council.com/safety-stat...
In Europe, trains are 28 times safer than cars (fatalities per passenger-km).
The discourse here is more of a criticism of Puentes, who is a very controversial minister overseeing this.
Unusual for a train though.
We already know Americans can't drive but with trains like... how do you mess up a straight line?
> how do you mess up a straight line?
One thing I learned working on a system that did train positioning for the 7 Line subway in NYC is that train systems are a lot more complicated than just straight lines. They are complicated networks with custom signaling and the trains don't necessarily travel on the usual side in the usual direction at all times.
That said, in this particular case it basically was just two straight lines side by side and one of the trains derailed and travelled into the path of the other track.
Trains don't often derail on straight sections, likely either someone fucked up really bad on rail maintenance or someone sabotaged the rail.
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> For the last decade, an average of 1,300 trains derailed each year (in the US), accounting for 61% of all train accidents.
https://usafacts.org/articles/are-train-derailments-becoming...
> In 2024, there were 1,507 significant railway accidents in the EU, with a total of 750 people killed and 548 seriously injured.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailment
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...when they come off the tracks.
a high-speed train travelling from Malaga to Madrid derailed and crossed over onto another track
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