Comment by bnchrch

I strongly doubt any current car will stand longevity of those cars. The maintenance entry cost of anything with integrated electronic is just several order of magnitude in complexity.

Ain't gonna be any diesel in the future. Peak oil has passed, now it's only going downhill.

Feels bad faith to shit on people from your ivory tower, just because they can't afford to ditch their reliable beaters and buy a new car. Have you seen wage growth vs car price increases lately? Not everyone is on a remote six figure US tech job. Try to view and judge things from outside your bubble as well.

I'd also dump my ol reliable ICE car that's now probably worth less than a fancy electric bicycle, if someone just gave me an EV for free ;)

But since I'm poor and can't afford EV prices with decent range, nor can I afford a home with a parking place with charger, then ICE it is. European here btw, not american.

Until very recently, tariffs on American cars sold in China were much higher than vice-versa. The new US tariffs were an attempt to even the playing field.

I think most people would agree that no tariffs would be good, but China is more protectionist than any other major economy, including recent changes in US policy.

Interesting that Canada agreed to break with the US on EV tariffs.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46648778

It's limited but I feel like Canada aligning themselves at all with China over the US is an interesting development.

This is the outcome when your corporations bow down to wall Street. Tax payers money is just used to prop up their private profits and without exposing them to the actual competition. Short term profit seeking. Who foots the bill, the US tax payer who have to pay for the corporate profits and drive overpriced underperforming vehicles.

Protecting automakers can be considered a vital business for national security. This is not good for consumers, but relying on China for everything also carries many risks.

The Ioniq 5N is extremely funny on paper. It's not wildly expensive, nor is it greatly modified from stock, but the engineers decided to just completely overspec the torque on what is otherwise an ordinary family car. So you get a 0-60 time of about three seconds.

I'm slightly surprised there aren't more cheap electric "hot hatches", but I think that market is dead even in ICE cars - young people don't have much free cash, aren't interested, and the insurers won't let them either.

And that’s based on a family car platform—wait until you drive something more purpose-built. Take a look at the Renault 5 Turbo E, the work-in-progress electric A110 and 718, or the more affordable SC01. Fun EVs are definitely coming in the next 5 to 10 years.

Automobile buyers who buy American or European cars are more likely to be auto enthusiasts.

Then there's the utility / practical / recreational crowd who goes for SUVs and pickup trucks.

Those whose primary aim is utility are already in (non-EU) foreign markets or used. Those are invisible to new-car US/EU sales.

It's a classic Innovators Dilemma dynamic (Clayton Christensen), where chasing higher-end market niches torpedoes development of disruptive tech within the same firm.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma>

> I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

Only like 1-2% of new cars are manual transmission here. A lot of the enthusiast market complains that everything is an automatic these days, even high end sports cars.

Auto enthusiasts no, but cars are definitely not appliances in the US.

Cars are a way people mark their social status - whether they will admit it or not. A big, luxurious SUV with a small mountain of space, the latest tech, etc is not an 'appliance'. It's a luxury people are choosing to buy.

The difference is in priorities. Americans wanted a very different kind of car than China is/was making.

They are in the sense that most of them are buying cars that represent their identity. For example nearly every pick up truck is an "auto enthusiast", because almost none of them are used for their primary purpose more than a few times mes a year.

Many Americans base their identity off that appliance though, buying big trucks to drive around the suburbs and commute in. It needs to go vroom, so no e trucks allowed. I'd say it's more like a form of narcissism than enthusiasm.

Explain to me why I should want an electric car?

I have a lot of ICEs - they are collectors items I keep in the shed unless there is a parade. My EVs are the daily drivers, not as fun, but more practical.

The above isn't quite true - there are some "daily" ICEs yet because EVs aren't in all niches and I don't replace things instantly even if they were. The idea is the future that is coming closer and closer to reality.

You are wrong - it is like holding onto horses because cars require carrying a mechanic to get anywhere. BEVs aren’t ready for every use and every place and every one in the US by at least a decade, so keeping an ICE / buying one today is the pragmatic choice.

>>So what is more practical, charging your car overnight without an electric plug or going to the gas station for a few minutes?

100x charging your car overnight with a plug. I don't think people who don't own an EV realize how great that is. Imagine if your petrol car magically got refilled with fuel every single night - add up all of those "few minutes" spent at a petrol station over your lifetime, and realize how much time you're getting back.

>> people are living in centuries old houses converted into high density condos, there are no garages

And yeah, that's a problem everywhere, not just in Portugal. Here in the UK a lot of people wouldn't have anywhere to charge at home.

You use kerbside charging. Unlike petrol, electricity comes to you.

I do have a garage and 'fuel' is half the cost of my previous, smaller ICE. We're considering solar power to get it practically free.

There's some nicer differences like leaving the air-conditioning on constantly because there's no pollution and it's also practically free. It's nice to have a giant battery instead of requiring an engine to constantly recharge it to run the electronics.

With batteries reaching 800-1000km per charge and most people doing around 30km a day of driving (way less for people living in dense areas), you basically only need to charge your car once every two weeks.

I have a 2020 Fiat 500 Abarth, and it is absolutely perfect: There is a screen (I think 7") for Android Auto/CarPlay/radio/nav, and every single other function in the car has a physical button. It is also absolutely gorgeous - pinnacle of design, IMO

From this year all EU cars will have physical buttons for heater controls, media etc.

Not sure why would you think EU automakers fail at making modern cars, also, you're generalizing 40+ car automakers in one basket.

Sure, but compared to an era when horses were used as a practical form of transport the number is effectively zero. Horses are a novelty that wealthy people play with. ICE cars will go the same way.

Maybe you’re the kind of person who believes the glass is always full if you can make the glass arbitrarily small.

Maybe it's naive of me, but I think the enthusiast will still have a place in the future, just as they can now own cars without 3-point seatbelts, catalytic converters, traction control, ABS, airbags, crumple zones, etc. all of which have been mandated for many decades.

The corner is turning on this, with e.g. the Renault 5 EV being extremely popular: https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2026/01/france-full-year-202...

I've test driven one, fun little car, decent provision of some non-touchscreen controls.

Ironically I think Tesla really opened up the EV market at all in the West by starting as a luxury option and working downwards. People don't want to feel they're taking a "hair shirt" option. "EVs are for rich people" has probably sold more cars than "EVs are for poor people" messaging would have.

The VW ID4 is winning the middle of the range family SUV market: https://electrek.co/2025/02/28/volkswagen-id-4-best-selling-...

It's not to my taste that bonnet lines have got higher, SUV style, but it appears to be what the public wants to buy.

> Remember when the U.S. deeply feared Japan's rapidly growing economy

They DID fear them and took action to gimp their industry. Read the Plaza Accord and the aftermath to the Japanese economy.

While that is true, the new car market has narrowed to the point where most of the buyers want something overpowered for their money. The most popular cars are actually buying these when they are 10+ years old.

(I śaw recently that the USA market is about 16M cars.. this would have been low figure years ago. But they are barely selling 'basic commuter cars'.)

I guess it depends on how you define car enthusiast.

A lot of Americans spend far more on their vehicle than they need to and so I would classify them as enthusiasts even if they couldn't tell you how many cylinders their engine has.

It's hard to get basic commuter without overload of tech these days

Aren't the most popular "cars" in the US actually SUVs and light trucks?

Comparing renting a new type of car when you have to figure everything out for 2 days then return it, to owning a car, where you also have to figure everything out, but only for the first days, not the 600 days afterwards, is not really comparable.

Also, when you own a car you charge it at home and work, so you don't really wait for the car to charge very often.

And the next time you rent a car, it will be a bit simpler as you have done it once before. And even quicker/simpler the time after that etc.

This is the equivalent of setting up a developer environment for charging a car. Once you have a car that's working, and you know how to connect to the app and charge it, almost all these problems go away. If you're in a place that has a lot of public chargers near your destination that you're already going to, then it's even easier, and it just becomes trivial.

That being said, I don't think I would want to rent a car that didn't have a place to charge it or a very easy-to-use fast charger nearby.

> jumping through phone app hoops

The very idea you effectively need a mobile phone to charge your car is mind boggling. The mess of proprietary charging networks and registrations is needless complexity that puts people off hiring (and ownership) of EVs.

For rentals I get that. We own 2 EVs and a charger at home. Easiest driving experience ever. We just plug it in.

Where are you based?

Here is a different narrative: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1qh5kdg/us_pres...

The marketers of the same companies that aren't trying to sell them small, cheap, practical EVs and want everyone to pay for high margin trucks and SUVs.

Unions in countries like Germany and France are much more powerful. Especially VW is extremely unionized, half of the seats on the Supervisory Board are allocated to worker representatives. These employee representatives are elected or selected by the workers (usually via union and works council processes), so VW employees indirectly influence board decisions through these seats.

> And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models.

Perhaps unstated, but this is going to be like trying to find parts for my Nokia 3210 (current age: 27). EVs are still in the "rapid improvement" phase, and by the time the battery warranty expires (5-7 years) the cars available on the current market will be significantly better in all respects.

On the other hand, they just have far fewer "parts" in the first place. Early indication is very good for lifetimes of the non-battery parts.

I expect the median EV of today to have a shorter life than a corresponding ICE, but the EV of 10 years time to have a much longer one. Which is going to make all the stupid issues around infotainment and subscription issues more acute.

The average age of all cars on UK roads has just hit 10 years: https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-car-in-th... ; EVs skew young because they're new.

No EV is going to run 20 years from now unless replacing batteries will start costing significantly less.

And Chinese brands are more than willing to tank the prices to absorb those tariffs

Toyota hybrids are full hybrids however, not mild hybrids like other manufactures, so all you really need is a bigger battery and charger. My 10 year old RAV4 Hybrid (not plug-in) can deliver 160kW just from the electric motors, without the engine. That's 3x a Dacia Spring. They have the technology for motors and control electronics, and they know it works long term without issues.

Most of the European EVs are basically just electric city cars, unable to drive long ranges due to small batteries and limited fast charging. And most of them after 100,000km will need a new battery. Doesn't really fit in with Toyota's 'long term reliability' stance.

I can't blame Toyota for waiting for the technology to mature before they go all in on EVs. Plus they do have the bz4x / RX which are full EVs you can buy today.

I've been pondering this, especially given that Japan is not an oil-producing country, and concluded: it's the internal politics of the engine group.

That is, the people who design engines and run the engines division have sufficient heft within the organization that they can prevent a good car being made that doesn't have an engine in it.

It's sort of worked out for them as they have a big niche in the taxi market, and other high milage users who've not taken the EV plunge yet. If you want the most efficient vehicle that still uses petrol, buy a Toyota.

The "greige" colour appalls me. Not only does it look like primer, it looks like the grey of old PC cases under a brown of smoke. Either basic white or basic black would be better. Or classic metallic silver.

Other than price, in what ways are they streets ahead? I’m a bit of an EV nerd and that would not be my assessment at all. Unfortunately for Western manufacturers price/volume is probably the most important thing right now, so they are still in serious trouble.

I dont drive one of their EV's, but the 20+ year veteran Diesel Engineer who took my DPF filter complaint escalation does and thats really all I need to know. After I run my current vehicle into the ground, that will probably be next.

I have ridden in a BYD and it was the opposite experience: excellent suspension, unusually smooth ride, great seats. A few things on the dashboard did look a bit tacky. But overall, massive difference from where Chinese cars were even 5 years ago.

Replying from a BYD now. I wish HN could attach photos.

It's literally quieter than a bicycle, except for a whirring when the car powers up. We've come across people and animals standing in the middle of the road because they didn't realize the car was right behind them.

Soundproofing is good too. It comes with karaoke built in and it's more sound proof than many karaoke rooms.

Suspension is much better than my previous car but I'll reserve judgement until it's also 5 years old.

Seats are comfortable enough to sleep in - some people are even using it as an alternative to a hotel, because you can keep the air-conditioning on all night and the seats go all the way down to a horizontal position. There's a window up top so you can watch the stars at night too.

Also the seats have air-conditioning in case your back is hot too.

Havent ridden in a BYD, but I absolutely abhor the Tesla interior, its like riding around in a rickety iPad.

BYD's seem (super subjective) to make less road noise outside of the vehicle. I still get snuck up on by them in car parks, but I have tuned in to the Tesla hum and can hear them a while off.

Tesla has shown that you can buy usd100K cars with dubious quality and terrible materials.

That makes it easier for brands who sell cheaper models imho. It is all about status, and right now having an EV and a fricking 17" TV on the dashboard trumps everything else.

I think you are a few years out of date. Certainly they used to be not great. They are way better now.

Most of what you’re describing applies to Teslas too, tho.

Well, China is not accepting/going through a Plaza Accord kind of an agreement. So history might not replay itself this time.

Yes I remember, too. The crucial difference is that Japan's population is one third of the US while China's is 4 times the US (and 3x the EU).

Basically Japan never had the numbers to "take over the world" while China has them even if natality is way down.

If China had the same clout relative to population as Japan, Germany, Korea, or the US it would dwarf everyone else, and that's why the US are in a panic about China.

And funny thing, all three countries car industries were started by the USA.

Most practical advancements in robotics have been in and will be in highly specialized systems. Generalized robots are still mostly experimental.

The issue is not actual quality, it’s perceived quality. Chinese companies will fight decades of history and negative perception to reach top of the market consumers, a segment obsessed with perception.

it took Japan about 25 years of very directed industrial strategy to take the "made in Japan" label from indicating junk to the average American, to indicating a premium/reliable product. China might get there in even less than 25 years but you'll probably still find people holding onto old "chinesium" beliefs long after they should

From what I've heard, the quality is pretty good. The problem is when something breaks, you can be waiting for (sometimes very expensive) parts for months while not being able to use your car.

> I'm trying really hard to buy European made products and to use European services where possible.

European companies are trying even harder to outsource to China.

In the past months I’ve seen an increase and it feels like almost everything is made in China, from books to Christmas trinkets to clothes and kitchen utensils, it’s a pain the ass to find locally produced goods.

This has a lot to do with the energy crisis triggered by decoupling from Russia, which was never properly put into context and evaluated from an economical perspective.

In the US for example, most of the US brands are already made in China. They will copy the tooling and put a different brand name on it and you'll have a tool of the same quality for way less cost.

Simply put China is an unrecognized superpower at this point with the investments they've already made. The amount of infrastructure they've built in a decade dwarfs what the West has done in decades.

>When Americans discover again how crappy their cars are compared to what's >available elsewhere, like we did with Japan

No, that's not what happened. Japanese manufacturers made cars in the US, to match US tastes. Japanese cars as sold in Japan, were not models Americans would buy.

>In the meantime, this incredibly short sighted protectionism will end just like >the last round did.

It'll end with...Chinese cars made in US factories w/ American workers? Chinese V8 pickup trucks failing to win market share against the US competition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYjsZr1PwM

If you read Calvin and Hobbes you can learn that Taiwan used to be known for making... shirts.

It's like that with tools if you know what to buy, and costs well below the US brands.

For my primary tools I'll have hundreds of hours of use I still buy the more expensive brands, but on tools I'll use much less commonly I'll pick up a Chinese unit in a heartbeat for 1/10th the price.

At the time the US was making the most cars in the world...quality varied widely, to be generous.

You'd think so, but also, Tesla.

> Selling the most x will eventually translate into making the best x

It’s a theory for sure, but I don’t think that’s a common strategy for modern capitalism.

They can't buy Chinese cars now, but I imagine the next Democratic president might want to knock Elon musk down a peg or two.