Comment by tclancy
1 day ago
> I don’t mind the ways in which my job is dysfunctional, because it matches the ways in which I myself am dysfunctional
As a fellow traveller, I offer one caution: learn to turn this down in personal relationships as it can be counterproductive. It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution. Some times people just want to be heard. It bugs the hell out of me because I tend to need to solve All The Problems before I can do any self-care, but rather than seem heroic, I think this attitude can seem transactional or uncaring as though everyone is just a screw that needed a bit of tightening, etc.
I frame it not as turning a dial down, but as switching channel from practical problem-solver to emotional problem-solver.
Often when someone wants to talk about a situation involving difficult feelings, they're actually trying to process those feelings: to understand where the feelings are coming from, to be validated, and to be able to take a broader perspective.
You can help by being curious about what they're saying, reflecting it back to them in your own terms, explaining how what they're feeling is understandable, and offering context or alternative viewpoints. These are actually complex problem-solving skills, although they can all fall under the umbrella of what people mean when they say "to be heard".
As a man, I've realised that once my emotions feel validated and accepted, I relax and the practical solutions just pop into my mind.
> switching channel from practical problem-solver to emotional problem-solver
Thank you for this useful tip! I've recently become aware that I may not be as good a listener I thought I was - I too make the common mistake of immediately offering solutions, or talking too much about my own relatable situations and feelings, instead of trying to really listen to them and help them figure out their own world view and feelings of a particular situation (and thus understand them better too in the process).
“Don’t just do something, stand there!” - I love this quote. Standing there or being there for someone is amazingly helpful and it’s a skill to do it, congrats on working on this.
Indeed, the more one knows about what it means to be a good listener, the more one becomes aware of not being such a good listener.
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> they're actually trying to process those feelings: to understand where the feelings are coming from, to be validated, and to be able to take a broader perspective.
If you’re speaking to a rational person with good intentions and good self-management this can help a lot.
If the other person doesn’t have good emotional regulation and is prone to catastrophizing, exaggeration, or excessive self-victimization then validating and reinforcing their emotions isn’t always helpful. It can be harmful.
I know this goes against the Reddit-style relationship stereotype where the man must always listen and nod but not offer suggestions, but when someone is prone to self-destructive emotional thought loops behind their emotional validator can be actively harmful. Even if validation is what they seek and want.
It can be a challenging skill to apply, and you need to use your judgement to discern whether the other person is in a place to engage with what you say.
One comment I'd make is the difference between "valid" and "rational". Emotions and feelings are always "valid", in the sense that they are a natural consequence of events and prior conditioning. But feelings are rarely "rational" - they often don't reflect the complete truth of a situation. For example, suppose someone says "Jennifer sent me this short snippy reply today, I swear she's upset with me about something and won't tell me what it is". It is perfectly legitimate to validate that you can see where that fear comes from, but nevertheless offer alternative possibilites: maybe Jennifer is going through a tough time personally, or has a really tight work schedule at the moment. You don't have to fully buy into someone's thoughts and feelings in order to help them process them. In fact this is rarely going to help.
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Being able to separate these situations out is part of ‘emotional problem solving’. Just like any problem solving, there is no one-size-fits-all solution for all cases.
I think the important bit is to recognize that emotions are separate from (although related to) the situation itself. The problem many people have is approaching emotional problems as simply symptoms of the underlying practical problem, and that the way to solve the emotional problem is to simply go directly to solving the underlying practical problem.
Now, sometimes this is the correct approach. However, many times it isn’t. Sometimes the practical problem is not solvable by you or the person you are talking to. Sometimes the practical problem is actually not really a problem and is simply triggering something else. Sometimes you just need someone to share some pain, or some joy, or just need a connection with someone.
A good emotional problem solver can navigate all of these situations.
> then validating and reinforcing their emotions isn’t always helpful
I think you might misintrepet what "validating someone's emotions" is/should do. It's not "You're absolutely right for feeling completely sad and broken down because the cafe wasn't open", but more "That must be such a horrible feeling, to feel so sad and broken down", without saying "yes/no" to if you think it's "justified or not".
The point is that the person is feeling what they're feeling, that's what the validation and acceptance comes in, not about what they're feeling those feelings about.
In the end, you can validate someone's feelings without validating what they're feeling those about, by just saying "that sucks".
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It really matters how self-destructive the talking person tends to be.
I think you missed the bit where they suggested being curious and offering perspective - it really does work out differently
> Often when someone wants to talk about a situation involving difficult feelings, they're actually trying to process those feelings: to understand where the feelings are coming from, to be validated, and to be able to take a broader perspective.
Right, talking about feelings is a way of regulating yourself.
Conflicts with my wife are a lot easier if I'm able to empathize with her emotional distress, acknowledging it, instead of jumping directly into logical problem solving. If I'm only looking logically at the issue, I can't really understand the issue she is having.
I like the view of the therapist Terry Real, that during conflicts you can either be right or stay connected. That doesn't mean that you hide your views, but that you also emotionally acknowledge the view of your partner. It's surprising how effectively this takes out the fire in conflicts.
> they're actually trying to process those feelings
Exactly, help exploring their problem, maybe direct them into one nook or the other, support a proper perspective from different angles (to a small extent within the context and constraints they provided!!!), but don't solve the riddle for them. They might not even know how they really feel about it all, yet.
> I frame it not as turning a dial down, but as switching channel from practical problem-solver to emotional problem-solver.
This perspective was a good stepping stone for me, but then I realized I needed bigger changes to keep growing. However I defined the problem to be solved, I was still setting up a dynamic that was arrogant. I thought I was air traffic control when others were looking for a copilot. Somebody along for the ride with them, not just requesting information about them and offering commentary from the ground.
Reading _How to Know a Person_ helped me a lot.
> You can help by being curious about what they're saying, reflecting it back to them in your own terms
Yes! Be an emotional rubber duck.
Be careful you don’t end up with people who have constant emotional problems that need fixing - or that you’re 100% sure that you’ll never need to say ‘no’. Speaking from experience.
Some people really don’t like ‘no’, especially when they have emotional problems.
Another pitfall with this approach is when someone has constant emotional but irrational reactions to everything. Being the person who validates their emotions becomes harmful if they’re over-reacting or developing harmful emotional reactions and you’re always there to validate them.
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I've heard that's true; compassion and empathy can be a draw for highly insecure people. You need to balance it with assertiveness and self-regulation, which are also part of emotional intelligence.
Then their emotions are not their only problem.
I've been in therapy for over a year and one of the most valuable things I've learned as a fellow "problem solver" is to run through the "three H's" when something comes up:
1. Do you want to be Helped? 2. Do you want to be Heard? 3. Do you want to be Hugged?
I'm still trying to get in the habit of using this approach more often with my partner, and as I do, it has noticeably improved our relationship. It turns out most of the time, she just wants to be hugged.
I've also used "do you need affirmation or advice."
I like your 3 H's though!
> It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution.
This can become toxic in itself, though. Some times venting and being angry is what someone wants to do, but in a workplace environment that’s not a good thing to implicitly condone and support.
I’ve had some team members who just wanted to vent but not discuss solutions and (again, in a workplace, not personal relationship) it was a sign that something deeper was amiss: Being a perpetual victim of their circumstances and believing those circumstances were beyond their control was a safe, comforting place to exist. It was always easier to build up excuses that problems were thrust upon them by others, who could be held solely responsible for the results. In some cases I had to be very clear that they were responsible for working with teammates to address these issues together, not become a passive receiver of everything that happens with their peers.
Swooping in as the hero to solve everything for someone else isn’t a good solution, but (in a workplace environment) getting someone to switch from the passive victim mindset to the active mindset of engaging with their own problems is very important.
This is one topic where carrying advice from personal romantic relationships into the workplace isn’t a good idea, IMO.
Venting all the time can actually be quite harmful to the venter. Negative energy drives change and if all you're doing is offloading then you're going to get stuck in a loop of feeling bad -> vent -> repeat while the underlying problem doesn't get solved.
The next trap is loudly announcing how you’re going to get yourself out of that situation, getting the neurotransmitter hit that comes from the announcement, and then never doing it.
I have a person who has distanced themselves from me because I don’t provide the feedback they crave when they do this for the eleventieith time. I only have so many spoons and that passion play feels like throwing them in the garbage disposal. I just can’t for my own well being. Sorry.
Being stuck in any emotional overreaction state is harmful.
There are a lot of people reciting the academic concept of validating emotions without endorsing them in this thread, but in the real world when you consistently "validate emotions" of someone who is over-reacting, it becomes an implicit endorsement.
In the real world, the people I've known to get stuck in negative emotion states did much worse when they surrounded themselves with people who constantly validated their emotions in the academic speak that's being used in this thread.
We all know that person who is borderline Munchausen’s Syndrome, railing against an unjust world they have mostly manufactured for themselves. Or the person who has no life skills and blames all their problems on “bad luck”. Fortune favors the prepared mind.
His advice was specific to the husband - wife relationship. You’ll understand if you happen to get married or enter a long term relationship.
Even there, though, there needs to be a balance. Sometimes my wife needs to vent to me about her problems, and I listen. But on the other hand, sometimes I need for her to not bring stuff up with me unless it's going to lead to a solution being implemented.
> You’ll understand if you happen to get married or enter a long term relationship.
What a remarkably condescending comment. I've been happily married for a long time.
The advice to surrive the workplace is to not act like a human lol
Treating workplace relationships with the same techniques as romantic relationships is a bad idea, IMO
Good point.
Tangentially, you could ask: Are you addicted to being useful or to being recognized as useful.
One is your own need, the other often a covered contract where you lash out or silently resign if you don't get the recognition that you think you deserve.
I'm surprised nobody asks whether you're at fault here, or she is.
Next time, maybe ask her to come up with solutions, e.g. do a brainstorm session.
If she then says she doesn't really want a solution, you can tell her then don't phrase your issues like that.
> asks whether you're at fault here, or she is
Or maybe nobody is? Why does someone has to be “at fault”?
> you can tell her then don't phrase your issues like that.
Sometimes people just want to be heard. There is value in recognising that.
There’s an old adage that is very important to logical people (as software engineers are, for example).
“Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”
My wife wants to throw out our perfectly functional table to get a better looking one. Financially and practically, I am right in fighting this. Is a few hundred bucks worth making someone aesthetically-minded not feel satisfied? No, you have to pick your battles.
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Pro tip - that usually just makes people angrier haha. (Source: twice divorced, and was - per the court - always right, but it didn’t help me one bit).
The challenge is, some people (most) get stuck on some emotional thing, and will drain you dry if you try to even engage with them on it. It’s especially prevalent right now.
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In my case, I really do want to be of use. In fact, I often tend to stay well in the background, and deliberately eschew credit.
That said, I do tend to get upset, when I’m taken for granted, but that’s really my own fault. I know it, rationally, but my inner brat still wants to throw a tantrum.
Well if none of the measures you already tried to stop that did not work, then maybe one thing that can help you is asking yourself whether you are not feeling drained after interacting with those people?
I, like yourself, cannot override my engineering mindset. I ALWAYS WANT TO HELP. But at one point I reframed it as an energy budget problem and how efficiently are my time and energy spent... and then it clicked.
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> I tend to need to solve All The Problems before I can do any self-care
I can so relate. I once read something that shifted my perspective a bit and helped me start the work of learning to better care for myself.
It was basically somebody talking/writing about the safety instructions when taking a flight. They tell you that in case of an emergency, when the o2 masks drop down to first put your ownmas on, before helping others. Because you are no help, if you loose conciousness.
This image/metaphor , to first put my own mask on, so that I can ensure, I will be able to help others without falling over, was what helped me start this process.
I sadly can't remember if it was Brené Brown or where I originally read that.
It's a great analogy. I first came across it in Gerald Weinberg's 'More Secrets of Consulting: The Consultant's Tool Kit', where he spends some time talking about burnout, what it means, and how to get out when you find your way in.
For a more spiritual audience: the analogy is also widely recognized in the Bible
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One pattern I’ve noticed, however, is that if you’re really good at doing this - and the situations being created are artificial - you might run into a situation where someone cuts or poisons your oxygen mask first.
I would have said ‘no way is someone that evil’, but uh…. Ask most men in their 40’s or 50’s.
> I would have said ‘no way is someone that evil’, but uh…. Ask most men in their 40’s or 50’s.
WDYM with the last sentence?
Buddy, this is the second comment in here where you want us to blame some unknown Other for our problems. That is a dead end. And gray hair doesn’t confer wisdom, as Thoreau said. Signed, some guy in his 50s.
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I'm probably your wife.
It could be related to the personality trait of how much of our world model is "in our mind" vs "out there":
If I speak with you while working on the world model in my mind, it looks like I just "want to be heard". But your feedback is actually very important, it's just that it should only feed my mental world model.
I am then surprised that my math coprocessor reaches for the GPIO.
We should probably talk then!
It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution. Some times people just want to be heard.
I'm glad she managed to solve this problem in the end.
;)
Same!
I learned this from the show Parks and Recreation. Ann is pregnant and trying to vent, and Chris is looking to solve all her problems. This drives her nuts.
Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdA8QNTqn-A
Yeah one thing that came out of couple therapy with my ex-wife is exactly this.
After I started explicitly asking if she wanted “problem solving” or “listening” things improved significantly.
Ultimately things did not work out for other reasons, but I have been able to successfully apply this in a new long-term relationship.
I've fallen into this problem before, but theres an additional trap you should be aware of: You are not a therapist.
You cannot and should not just "listen" to problems that you're not allowed to work on or expect the other person to work on. You are an active member of this persons' life with your own point-of-view and emotional needs, not a dumping ground for emotional flotsam.
This is a good point. In countries with well regulated industries, therapists are required to go to therapy themselves for that very reason. It takes training and continual psychological maintenance to be that emotional dumping ground for other people and should not be taken up by normal people lightly.
> It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution.
There is a great YT video on this topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
It's not about the nail!
Yeah so far there's not enough nuance in the discussion.
I also like to separate between 1) solvable vs unsolvable problems: e.g. you cannot solve a deceased relative.
Also 2) first time vs multiple repeat problems
If find it very irritate someone is venting to me repeatedly about solvable problems.
But if it's a 1 time unsolvable problem, then it's important to be in listening mode.
You are missing the point, though. The complainer decides whether it's a solvable problem or not, not the listener. So "I'll listen if it's unsolvable (to me)" is a non-starter.
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That has been tricky with my partner because many times she legitimately does want me to just handle the problem for her, and then you get into the fuzzy area where it is my job to interpret what she says and her job to communicate what she needs clearly and you are often left with an ambiguous conflict where both parties feel justified.
I do generally find it is easier for women to respond with empathy instead of solutions because there is no background expectation that they are capable of fixing a problem their male partner has.
Yeah, I am still learning to not be logical and fix whatever ails her. Often she really just wants to be heard, not solutions.
I am ~30 years old, hopefully I will be able to just hear, without offering any solutions. It bothers me too. I am a SWE because I love solving problems!
The real trouble is knowing what being heard, means. For me, as long as no one's intending to make this situation better, I'd like to go do other things. How long do I have to stay there pretending to lament that her life is so hard--especially when part of that is because she hates having her problems solved?
> It bothers me too. I am a SWE because I love solving problems!
In my case, I've recently been wondering whether I really love solving problems, or rather just hate stupid bullshit and solving it - quickly and efficiently - is usually the best way to make it go away for good.
In many cases, the behavior is identical - I just find myself to be motivated by frustration more often than curiosity these days.
Yeah, I can relate. I would say I am motivated by frustration more than curiosity as well, not just with regarding to my partner but in general.
It's Not About The Nail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
I usually ask if we're chatting if my partner is looking for any feedback/solution or if she just needs to be mad. It's pretty effective
I've been with my wife for almost 4 years, and we both have the same problem. But, we both like having systems and routines, so now we have a system: lead with "I don't need help, I just need to vent." YMMV of course.
Well said...I have discovered the same in my own marriage of thirty years. I would add that even bringing a good solution in a relationship can go unheard, especially if the motivation is to be the fixer, and to be honest make your own life easier by silencing the other's point of frustration.
Counterpoint - she should have known what she was getting into marrying an engineer. It cones with the territory.
I saw a show where the listener asks at the beginning of the interaction: "wait, do you want me to try to solve a problem, or just to listen?"
In fact being or feeling useful can be addictive. It goes beyond fixing technical problems. If I know someone is sad or in trouble for a longer period of time, I tend to check in regularly. I need to hold myself back, not to do it too often. The reason is probably the dopamine (or some happy neurotransmitter) effect that respectful or thankful people invoke on me. So it is the help<->dopamine transaction.
Super-relatable.
Now that I think about it, most of my advice starts something like "Here's what you're gonna do..."
Wait, that itself sounds like a problem, but how do I fix it...
I specifically ask my wife "Are you looking for me to help you solve this, or just venting?", because I automatically try to solve.
> not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution
Relatable. Is true for even the simplest problems that some people have.
Sometimes they just didn't even address it yet and are only becoming adequately aware of it and here you are spelling out a plan of action during a 7 min encounter in the kitchen.
Classic treatise on this topic: "It's not about the nail" (<2 min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
could this be a difference in male/female brains ? talks implies action for men, while women want to communicate most and maybe plan to act ? just curious, it's an issue that has been mentioned everywhere all the time
>could this be a difference in male/female brains ?
Maybe socially, but I'm not sure about naturally. It took me a long time to get where the GP is, realizing that some just like to he heard rather than offered solutions. Now I notice that my family are "fixers" and any problem or difficulty is countered with "did you do this" or "you should have done that" or "why don't you.." I now realize I don't like being second guessed in a moment like that, in contrast to the gender stereotype.
true, there are families, groups who have naturally different reaction to the same event..
listen, don't problem solve.
advice for every engineer, ever, lol.
(also related - do you listen, or wait to talk?)
It becomes more challenging when the person is Carrie Fisher from When Harry Met Sally, “processing” the same information for years at a time. This is not a surprise. That he’s never going to leave her. You know the solution. You are the architect of your own stress. You’re torturing yourself for who? An audience of me?
I’ve watched that “you have a nail in your forehead” video again with the benefit of another ten years of life and it’s interesting how I saw what the women were saying the first time I watched it but on a rewatch it’s clearly making fun of her at least as much as him. You’re in the middle of a medical emergency and you want to just talk about it instead of calling 911. That’s a bridge too far.
And to think I always hated that trope in action and scary movies where the person wants to ask questions while being chased by a psychopath or a dinosaur. Compartmentalization is good - in appropriate doses.
This is kind of typical situation with men and women right, they need their girl friend coffee complaint time, we guys need similar beer time, albeit contents vary wildly. At least what you write fits every ex-gf I dated, and also fits my guy-brain expectations and resulting type of discussions.
Part of the setup by default, but should not take decades to discover or reveal. Similar to how women experience stuff mainly via emotions, hence what was fine yesterday may not be today albeit factually nothing changed.
101 of each adult should be also figuring out how one works (and how doesn't) and optimizing with other relevant parties further interactions.
The solution is to get a gambling addiction, a drug addiction, trouble with the law, or a healthy mix of all three.
Then your wife (or husband) will stop bitching to you about their problems, and start bitching to other people about their problem (you).