Comment by NalNezumi
11 hours ago
My British friend that lived in Kyoto had his favorite snac bar. He was accepted as a local and even had a whiskey bottle saved for him (privilege for the regulars!)
Another snac bar that he brought me to had an interesting story. The snac bar was in an apartment complex (due to Japan's funny zoning laws) at the nightlife district, could maybe fit 5-6 max. The place was filled with blues and jazz LPs! When we went there, there was only one man sitting, eating omelets and a talking to the owner.
Turns out the owner used to be a salary man in Tokyo, but got sick of the corporate banking life, took his savings, moved back to Kyoto to open his small bar. He loved music, particularly blues and jazz, so just bought an apartment and rebuilt it on his own as this jazz n blues bar. He barely made any money, lower than minimum wage. but he said to him it was a life style, and he enjoyed it and wouldn't have it any other way.
The guy eating the omelet, turned out to be a pretty famous professor at Kyoto University. He had this deal with the owner that he would make him lunch boxes and dinner for the professor (omelet wasn't on the bars menu), and he hanged around there every night. They've had that setting going for 8 years and the owner laughed that he was essentially the professors wife, and a bad influence for his workaholics habit!
There's a charm to those places, but they're best observed from the distance. The group of exchange student I was part of made a local bar close to the uni our hang out, because they had cheap beer and amazing food. But one day the owner politely told us they didn't want us to come back. That 10+ tall loud white people was ruining the third place this bar represented to the locals.
Funny thing many of the students protested "I don't understand. We're customers. We're paying and bringing many customers!" they tried to convince the students "to you it's consumption but to us it's a community place". Few of the students would accept that answer, but obliged. Oddly only the French did understand the sentiment. (and the Swiss were the most entitled)
> Oddly only the French did understand the sentiment
French culture is a rare culture where shop owners won't be afraid to tell off/talk back at customers that don't show a basic level of politeness. You, as a customer, are in the shopkeeper's "home", so to speak, and you should behave accordingly. Someone who doesn't use the customary "bonjour/merci/au revoir" is likely to be met with some response like "tout d'abord, bonjour" ("first of all, hello"), or "et la politesse, alors?" ("what about politeness?").
(of course, people from older generations would be likely to say that these things are going away)
I'm French/American, raised across both countries, and even as a kid it shocked me that a customer in the US could get away with "I'll have a coke" as their only utterance to a waiter - no hello, please, thank you.
I suspect this is why the French have a reputation for rudeness. It's easy to understand why tourists from cultures where "the customer is king" would be shocked when they get told off for being loud/rude/inconsiderate.
(I've lived in Japan for a few years now, and ironically enough, I find Japanese customer service culture to be closer to that of the US than France - the customer is king, and while thankfully not too common, some Japanese customers will definitely abuse that dynamic. There's been a growing awareness and pushback on カスハラ, but it's a real thing, and is very cringe to witness)
>as a kid it shocked me that a customer in the US could get away with "I'll have a coke" as their only utterance to a waiter - no hello, please, thank you.
As a Norwegian who's been visiting the US for quite a few times now (as we speak), I've always appreciated the "hello, please, thank you", but what really gets me are the incessant "how are you"s.
I know what you mean. I once worked at a Berlin games company with many international and US colleagues. Even after three years, I still couldn't figure out why even people I barely knew greeted me with an enthusiastic "Hey [Name]! How are you?". It always felt like a very awkward handshake.
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> French culture is a rare culture where shop owners won't be afraid to tell off/talk back at customers that don't show a basic level of politeness.
My favorite French shop anecdote (I'm American): Went to a bakery in Paris. Tried to order "Un croissant, s'il vous plaît". Shopkeeper responded (in very lightly accented English) with "I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying". I wasn't mad or offended, in fact it's one of my favorite memories from the trip.
Bonjour monsieur, je voudrais une eclair chocolate s'il vous plait is my number one French phrase. I can usually sell it. Maybe you needed the prefixes?
Did you ever get your croissant in that shop?
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It's very similar in German stores, at least in Berlin.
> That 10+ tall loud white people was ruining the third place this bar represented to the locals.
I could easily see this being an issue in a lot of smaller US bars.
A group of 10+ loud university students coming into a sleepy storefront bar may not be doing anything wrong per se but they can completely change the atmosphere for the regulars.
> due to Japan's funny zoning laws
Way better than what we have here in the US.
For those not familiar with them, the gist is that Japanese zoning defines what's basically a maximum nuisance level (from low-density residential, up to various levels of commercial operation, up to heavy industry), and anything up to that can be built in the given area. Plenty of 'residential' areas are broadly zoned as allowing up to light or medium commercial activity wherever an owner can put it.
It truly is, I recently read a great article about the coffee shops being run out of a room in people's homes- I would love to sell coffee out of my garage for a few hours before work.
Compared to Australia where the government attempts to plan and control every aspect of commercial business, Japan's laws are a real breath of fresh air. Melbourne's had laws so strict that they've done a bang up job of ruining the local live music scene. Minimum numbers of bouncers, licenses that don't extend past midnight. Our big dance parties have been shifting the start times earlier and earlier because of absurd curfews. Some bars have been grandfathered in because they had licenses before all this started but it's impossible to obtain new ones. Unless of course you are the casino in which case citizens can spend the weekly food money on slot machines at whatever hour of the day they choose.
In Japan I was in a city during a local jazz festival. Entire streets shut down, bars with stalls set up on the street selling drinks. Kids intermingled in the alcohol drinking area and you know what? People behaved themselves and had a great time.
Australia, lacking any real problems to solve is like a modern immune system attacking the host because it can't find the invaders it should be taking care of.
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Happen to have that article? Sounds like a good read.
> […] and even had a whiskey bottle saved for him (privilege for the regulars!)
Not a privilege. Anyone can do that. They usually keep the bottle(s) for up to 3 months.
Source: I’m Japanese.
Sure, but at that time, at that place, for a foreigner it was quite rare!
Source: I'm Japanese too ;]
But... It was a third place for you as well.