Comment by charcircuit
13 days ago
There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust.
>the early stages of despotic rule literally today in Minnesota
This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there.
13 days ago
There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust.
>the early stages of despotic rule literally today in Minnesota
This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there.
> This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there.
Yes, we are seeing a destruction of order in MN. US citizens being terrorized by ICE and CBP agents with 47 days of training, no understanding of the legal limits of their authority, and no consequences when they go beyond those limits.
But that's not being caused by people pushing back against the beginnings of autocracy. That's being caused by the people who want to become autocrats.
ICE is bringing order to the country as they are law enforcement.
ICE's remit is dealing with immigration. They are not general purpose law enforcement, despite this administration seemingly using them as such.
But that's also not really the point, so we can even presume they are, because the root of the argument is the same either way. Just having a title or being ordered to do something by a politician does not automatically mean they are bringing order to the country. There is a reason the founding fathers set the country up the way they did, with multiple checks and balances, separate branches, etc. They went out of their way to make it that no one branch would have unlimited power.
That means that order in this country fundamentally is based on those checks and balances being adhered to. Any unilateral shift away from that is fundamentally pulling us into a more disordered state. I wish seances were a thing because I would love to hear the founders' take on "Masked men ordered here by a unitary executive branch detain and arrest random people including US citizens for the purpose of making sure they are here legally, while also using a private ledger to determine where the citizen's legally recognized documents are valid."
But we can go even more fundamentally than that: The label on a thing does not make it the thing. They can call themselves law enforcement while still breaking the law. It happens to real law enforcement all the time - cops can and do get punished for crimes they commit, at least sometimes.
Then why would the head of DHS offer to the state governor to pull them out of the state if Minnesota turned over its state electoral and other records to Trump's administration, in defiance of court orders and laws prohibiting it?
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> This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Are you sure it's this kind of thinking that's at fault? I would've said that it's actually caused by giving people without training and any serious screening extreme power with absolutely zero accountability. Would love to hear your take on this though.
Yes, I am sure it plays a factor, giving people justification for their actions. The issue is that restoring order is not easy. And when the people making disorder are antagonistic to the people restoring order that clash leads to unfortunate scenarios. Lack of training (specifically direct experience of dealing with such behavior) or screening plays a role in how order is restored but these are reactive actions. In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place.
> In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place.
In my mind everyone would be better off if current incarnation of ICE was disbanded so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. You've completely switched cause and effect - ICE behavior is the CAUSE of protests, not the effect!
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The people "making disorder" are operating democratically within the former USA constitution.
Those you consider to be bringing order are arbitrarily enacting violence against citizens and other people in ways that break the law and Constitution; and which are outlawed in all moral societies. Sure, strict conformance to a dictators whims is a form of order, but if you seek that sort of order in your life you should look for a dom and not attempt to impose it on others.
The clashes do not have to happen. Trump's Regime can be removed, habeas corpus resurrected, and the Constitution re-implemented.
Your mind appears to wear jackboots.
> There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust.
the argument isn't that states can't create ex-post facto laws (even though they can, see: any country with parliamentary sovereignty)
it's that what the law says doesn't matter when the executive no is longer bound by the rule of law
see: the United States under the Trump regime
the fact that some previous legislature has passed a law saying that "using the gay/jewish/disabled/... database for bad things is illegal" is of no consequence when the state already has the database and has no interest in upholding the rule of law
No, this argument is about the database of past events being prosecuted in the future.
>"using the gay/jewish/disabled/... database for bad things is illegal"
If it is legal than I want to be able to use such a database as it makes law enforcement more efficient. It gets rid of inefficiency in the government. Wanting such inefficiency is wanting to allow for unlawful behavior. It's the whole using privacy as an excuse to hide from the government.
I do want to allow for unlawful behavior. Not all laws are just.
asinine logic