Comment by charcircuit

13 days ago

If the user doesn't trust an operating system, why would they use it. The operating system can steal sensitive information. Trusted computing is trusted by the user to the extent that they use the device. For example if they don't trust it, they may avoid logging in to their bank on it.

17 comments

charcircuit

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mzajc  13 days ago

> If the user doesn't trust an operating system, why would they use it.

Because in the case of smartphones, there is realistically no other option.

> For example if they don't trust it, they may avoid logging in to their bank on it.

Except when the bank trusts the system that I don't (smartphone with Google Services or equivalent Apple junk installed), and doesn't trust the system that I do (desktop computer or degoogled smartphone), which is a very common scenario.

LoganDark  13 days ago

To trust an Android device, I need to have ultimate authority over it. That means freedom to remove functionality I don't like and make changes apps don't like. Otherwise, there are parts of practically every Android that I don't approve of, like the carrier app installer, any tracking/telemetry, most preinstalled apps, etc.

I recently moved to Apple devices because they use trusted computing differently; namely, to protect against platform abuse, but mostly not to protect corporate interests. They also publish detailed first-party documentation on how their platforms work and how certain features are implemented.

Apple jailbreaking has historically also had a better UX than Android rooting, because Apple platforms are more trusted than Android platforms, meaning that DRM protection, banking apps and such will often still work with a jailbroken iOS device, unlike most rooted Android devices. With that said though, I don't particularly expect to ever have a jailbroken iOS device again, unfortunately.

Apple implements many more protections than Android at the OS level to prevent abuse of trusted computing by third-party apps, and give the user control. (Though some Androids like, say, GrapheneOS, implement lots that Apple does not.)

But of course all this only matters if you trust Apple. I trust them less than I did, but to me they are still the most trustworthy.

  • charcircuit  13 days ago

    >to protect against platform abuse, but mostly not to protect corporate interests

    What do you mean by this? On both Android and iOS app developers can have a backend that checks the status of app attestation.

    • LoganDark  13 days ago

      "App attestation" means different things for Android than for iOS. On iOS, it verifies the app was installed from the right place. On Android, it tries to check if the device is tampered with, or hasn't been fully certified by Google, or etc... Android's far more finicky because Google uses this process to crack down on OEMs and hobbyists, while Apple implicitly trusts itself.

      Also, "checking the status of app attestation" is the wrong approach. If you want to use app attestation that way, then you should sign/encrypt communications (requests and responses) with hardware-backed keys; that way, you can't replay or proxy an attestation result to authorize modified requests.

      (I believe Apple attestation doesn't directly support encryption itself, only signing, but that is enough to use it as part of a key exchange process with hardware-backed keys - you can sign a public key you're sending to the server, which can verify your signature and then use your public key to encrypt a server-side public key, that then you can decrypt and use to encrypt your future communications to the server, and the server can encrypt its responses with your public key, etc.)

bigyabai  13 days ago

Do you actually, bottom-of-your-heart believe that ordinary consumers think like this? They use TikTok and WhatsApp and Facebook and the Wal-Mart coupon app as a product of deep consideration on the web of trust they're building?

Users don't have a choice, and they don't care. Bitlocker is cracked by the feds, iOS and Android devices can get unlocked or hacked with commercially-available grey-market exploits. Push Notifications are bugged, apparently. Your logic hinges on an idyllic philosophy that doesn't even exist in security focused communities.

  • charcircuit  13 days ago

    Yes, I do believe from the bottom of my heart the users trust the operating systems they use. Apple and Google have done a great job at security and privacy which is why it seems like users don't care. It's like complaining why you have a system administrator if the servers are never down. When things are run well the average person seems ignorant of the problems.