Comment by mittensc
1 month ago
How would you put coal in EV?! They're electric, you plug them in!
You provide the research to prove ICE is cleaner.
Go in detail, I'll check everything:
- cost of extraction
- cost of byproducts
- cost of refining
- waste during refining
- cost of transporting oil to the pump (what do oil transport ships burn?)
- cost of burning that oil
- analysis on car age affecting emissions
- analysis of cheating like volkswagen
- full analysis of ICE car manufacturing
- Cost of wars to give us oil
- cost of weaponry needed to make oil producers behave and sell it at a decent price
- cost of aircraft carriers positioned around the world to enforce that.
- health cost of breathing in fumes.
- total cost of lead poisoning done by ICE cars until it was forbidden.
- health costs of noxes from diesel cars.
- costs of cars with dpf off or cat converter removed or just bad engines.
- Environmental impact of shale oil and water aquifers destruction and earthquakes.
- (reserve the right to add more after you provide the above)
"Coal in the EV?"
Based on that I no longer believe you are an expert of any chemistry or energy. Or you are really bad at making jokes maybe?
Regardless, electricity for your EV comes from somewhere, right? It's powered by a coal power plant in much of the US, with electrical energy transduced (effective loss at every transduction point) through countless parts and miles of electrical equipment before it reaches your charger.
Are you about to tell me that coal is cleaner than gasoline? It's not remotely comparable. Coal is insanely dirty. This is common knowledge.
Every metric you asked about applies to coal and much worse and therefore to your EV in vast swathes of America.
The EV in such places is doubly destructive. You've burned coal AND mined lithium and shipped it, plus you're carrying a heavier load, and your batteries are short lived, and toxic.
There's simply no comparison. Be real.
Oh no, am i bad at making jokes?, Or is your argument a joke?
> It's powered by a coal power plant in much of the US, with electrical energy transduced
You are wrong. Please provide sources and peer reviewed study that says that.
Even wikipedia says you are wrong!, look up share of coal power plants in electrical supply!
Where did you get that fact from?
So what debate can I have with you if you can't even start from truth and facts?
>Oh no, am i bad at making jokes?, Or is your argument a joke?
No my argument was serious. You've sliced your data gratuitously. You're also making rude jokes, and I think there are HN rules about that somewhere. But, I'll forgive you.
Right where you found your data (you shouldn't use Wikipedia for science), is a map of coal plants in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal-fired_power_stati...
You looked up the share of energy for the US as if every vehicle owner spends equal time driving in every city. That's dishonest. A vehicle owner typically drives in one city nearly all the time. If that city is coal powered as we can see, many are, that owner should not operate an EV. But policy relying on blanket data like yours would incentivize their doing so. That's bad for everyone, except the policymaker and his buddies selling EV related products.
The primary point, however, is that EVs move the pollutants up the supply chain. The car itself is non-emission, but the power plant and battery cycle are not! And the alternative power sources aren't really clean either. Nuclear, for example, requires mining, enrichment, etc. (all carbon heavy) and then we still need to deal with disposal which doesn't even exist! We're sweeping that under the rug when we call that clean energy. We don't have a solution for waste so we just exclude it from our impact calculations? Ridiculous.
Now add a toxic battery on top of all of that, and all of the mining and waste disposal associated with it. You've moved your pollutants to China, added shipping lanes, and dumped more oil and now lithium into the ocean. This may be worse overall and it's for sure worse for owners of cars in coal powered locations.
But you do get to say that the EV in a vacuum is zero emissions (at the location of inertial output only). Nice work!
Your argument zoomed out to blanket statement the US where it suits you, and then zoomed in to the car itself to exclude where your pollutants are. It's truly very dishonest. That argument is damaging to the public interest and to the environment, and insults the sciences.
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