Comment by weitendorf

13 days ago

I think I know the answer, but people don’t want to hear it. Gwern has a kind of formula/structure really effectively markets his blog to the HN audience, which is Not Bad Actually, just effective messaging + giving people what they want.

You can’t really separate the content from its medium, its contex, and its audience if you’re thinking about “why is this successful” (why does the medium express the content n a particular content that works for some particular audience). What the blog post is really about is not “writing” or creating good content per-se, but how to structure content for a blog-like/feed-based medium where you’re competing for clicks, views, attention, participation in external narratives, and relevancy/memorability with an audience mostly looking to be entertained or scratch some curiosity itch.

Gwern has a good formula for that which matched the HN context and audience:

1. Pique interest and grab attention. Give me a reason to click.

2. Let the reader in on the secret, you and me vs all these other idiots. Validate me.

3. Back it all up with sources/references and a post that articulates something the reader already was aware of but fundamentally agreed with. Teach me something but make me feel like “Finally someone who gets it” rather than challenged or threatened.

4. Do the work to actually deliver on the hook. Satisfy my curiosity and give me a reason to come back and share it.

None of this is even necessarily manipulative, it’s just the form that successfully competes in a click-driven market for attention and information (the context). Nobody has to click or read through or share or comment on the thing. Most likely very few will click through to the sources, but they might peep them or be interested to know that they exist. It’s very effective progressive disclosure.

The thing is, this audience REALLY does not want to believe that they can be marketed to or that their decision making is many ways pretty damn emotional/predictable. Gwern does an excellent job validating that for them AND successfully marketing to them anyway. I think that’s the part that’s missing from this post.

The context is completely non-captive, the audience wants to feel smart, and believes that they are “too smart to be marketed to”. Here they are scrolling through an attention market looking for interesting information that they need to be convinced to click, read through, share, and engage with. Why was the link shared and content created to being with, and how did it structure itself to fit its content/audience, and why does a particular structure/messaging work while others don't?

The word for all of that is Marketing. It's just a Good Thing when done right.

I think that's a very interesting, thoughtful response.

> You can’t really separate the content from its medium, its contex, and its audience

Yes, I completely agree.

> the audience wants to feel smart, and believes that they are “too smart to be marketed to”. Here they are scrolling through an attention market looking for interesting information that they need to be convinced to click, read through, share, and engage with. Why was the link shared and content created to being with, and how did it structure itself to fit its content/audience, and why does a particular structure/messaging work while others don't?

> The word for all of that is Marketing.

I think that overemphasizes the significance of a 'market'. 'Market' is used as a metaphor for many things, such as 'attention market', but also implies commercial, transactional, profit-oriented relationships, which don't seem like such strong motivations here (though I can't speak for the author). And to me your claims seem assume that the author's primary goal is more attention - they are in an 'attention market', they do all these things with intent to drive more page views.

They could have many other motivations. As a general concept, people love to share what they know, sort of like the drive to make FOSS. Maybe the author just loves to learn things and the blog posts provide an excuse; I've fallen into similar hobbies - without regret. Maybe they feel validated, or it relieves stress, or it's an escape from a job they hate, etc. There are so many possibilities in addition to commerce, attention, or profit.

I do agree that the HN "audience wants to feel smart, and believes that they are “too smart to be marketed to”." Those are the easiest people to persuade.

> each me something but make me feel like “Finally someone who gets it” rather than challenged or threatened.

Ironically, AI has been making me feel like this lately. But it taught me all of this (i.e. your exact point about the psycological levers employed by people/organizations who understand why stuff goes viral).

So is that real or am I just being successfully marketed to, now by AI.

  • I guess my meta-point is that "marketing" shouldn't be such a dirty word, because done well enough, it's effective communication that gives people what they want/helps them AND makes them feel good. My own comment basically does the same thing I said he did, lol.

    The point of calling it marketing is that this blog post is explaining hooks, basic content marketing (ie be entertaining or interesting), progressive disclosure, and understanding your target audience: standard marketing concepts. You can find a lot of info if you research them by those terms.

    Gwern's audience, in an ironic twist of fate, think that being marketed to = being tricked or manipulated by an evil person, so here he is explaining basic content marketing concepts to the people his blog is marketed towards, who hate marketing and believe themselves immune to it.

    AI does the same thing to you because 1. most of the web is marketing 2. why shouldn't it be nice to you AND help you? 3. you keep coming back for more, right? And is that necessarily a bad thing?

    I highly recommend a deep dive into signalling theory if you're interested in learning more, it's completely changed how I think about communication and behavior, even my own.

    • Sure, when it's fronting a great product, I have no issue with marketing. But it can be abused, which makes people suspicious (but not invulnerable as we know).

      Anyway, I am currently in "lean in and find out" mode with AI :-)

      Not quite at Gas Town yet but I've dropped a lot of baggage and willing to take a hike to try and find it.