Comment by randycupertino
19 days ago
This is big. HIMS and HERS and other companies are blantatly skirting patent laws under the guise of compounding.
19 days ago
This is big. HIMS and HERS and other companies are blantatly skirting patent laws under the guise of compounding.
>blantatly skirting patent laws
Why is this a bad thing? The quickest way to fix the medical/insurance/bureaucracy complex is to just allow people to sell direct to consumer.
The best (worst) example of this is CPAP. Ideally you'd just be able to go and buy one for $300, but instead there is a complex around "necessity" and "prescription", which creates an effective monopoly where the exact same hardware can be sold at different price points with software locked features.
If even a "simple" mechanical device like this which violates no patents and can't materially harm a person in any way can be restricted on grounds of paternalistic "safety", then one would be right to remain skeptical of the claim that the FDA is restricting action against unauthorized semaglutide knockoffs to
>safeguard consumers from drugs for which the FDA cannot verify quality, safety, or efficacy.
In Italy, you can walk into a shop and buy as many contacts as you like.
In the US, if you haven't paid your annual tithing to get a hall pass from an optometrist, the FDA won't let you.
Going to Japan felt like living in the future. I could walk into any glasses store, and for $50 or less buy a pair of frames and lenses. If I didn't know my prescription, included in the price was an automated eye exam machine which'd figure it out in 2 or 3 minutes.
In the US I'm paying $200 just for the exam.
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Well actually, there are lawsuits in the works because the Philips CPAP machine had toxic foam which would break down and increase the risk of cancer.
European Respiratory society disagrees on the cancer risk fwiw https://www.ersnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Update-on-... but yeah obviously degraded foam isn't good. The foam isn't actually a required part, it's just for sound reduction.
But I think that proves my point, the supposedly "rigorous" FDA review didn't flag concerns about foam in the airpath of something you breathe through, so what exactly is the approval process buying you? Philips issued a voluntary recall but resmed uses foam in their units too, and while they claim it's a different type of foam it seems there are better ways to engineer sound reduction than putting foam in the air channel and potentially breathing in microplastics.
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Yep in other countries CPAPs are over the counter. In America you need to go to a sleep lab for a wasteful overnight sleep study (sometimes two!) that costs thousands. And then have appointments with a “doctor” who provides no useful help but is necessary for the prescription. All for the machine to figure out its own optimal settings anyways. Total racket and regulatory capture.
Right I used CPAP as an example because it bypasses all arguments about "novel technology", "drug development" cost, or "need for safety". Even an ASV algorithm could probably be implemented as a ~graduate project since it seems to be a rather basic control algorithm (today with ML you could probably do even fancier things). It's basically a piece of pure technology that could be commoditized, manufactured and sold to people for < $300 in the way smartphones are. If something as "basic" as this can't be accomplished due to the regulatory environment then it's sort of pointless talking about anything more complex like pharma drugs.
Not to sound like a broken record, but they're also prescription-required in Germany, as are the accessories. My otherwise very by-the-books husband ended up buying grey-market masks in order to be able to try several styles before finding one that worked well for him.
Well you either remove all the bureaucracy around drug testing and approval and make it cheap to develop a new drug, or you prevent drug makers from making money if they are successful at developing a new molecule. But if you do both, all you will get is zero research. Right now it takes 10s of billions in R&D budget to bring new molecules to the market, which is insane.
Or you pay them directly. Most countries have research funding. Since there's no way to know what you'll find or how long it will take, research doesn't fit well in the capitalist model. Makes much more sense to apply a fixed effort and accept whatever results come out, but only the government can do that — or a rich monopoly like Bell.
As long as the company that did the research and the medical professional gets paid the same amount. I’m completely OK with cutting out the insurance and the bureaucracy and other non-value add middleman, but the value add partners need to get paid for this to be sustainable.
Patent laws exist for a reason. It’s so people that come up with paradigm changing ideas and inventions can get rich off of it. This is something we want to maintain.
> Patent laws exist for a reason
And maybe in this case they are functioning as intended.
Unfortunately, they are also leveraged to provide a moat and profits in situations where no innovation has occurred. (Eg, patents on one click shopping.)
My grandfather was one of the originators of the technology that became CPAP. He did not get rich from it.
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Why is it bad when companies break the law? We have patent laws for a reason (to incentivize enormously expensive drug development).
Novo and Lilly already sell direct to the consumer! Yes, you need a prescription, but once you have one you can buy straight from the manufacturer.
That's nice. The rest of the world has price caps on what these companies can charge for drugs.
It's one or the other. You can have your ''patents'' and ''intellectual property'' respected...but that requires you not charge an outrageously higher price in certain markets, like the US.
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The main reason drug development is so enormously expensive because the FDA makes it that way with their paranoid risk averse regulatory process and insanely restrictive requirements on what requires a doctor prescription.
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As always, depends on the law. This is a bright line example of companies breaking the law to the direct tangible benefit of not only their customers but the population at large. Letting Novo Nordisk jack the price back up and deprive the vast majority of Americans access to the greatest good to public health in a century meanwhile is… maybe not the example you should be holding as the law working.
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> blantatly skirting patent laws
Can you please explain (TFA doesn't mention patent laws, just unregulated drugs)? For example, my understanding is that semaglutide is protected by patent in the US - I had assumed HIMS was including semaglutide in some of their formulations under an agreement with the patent holder, but I guess that's not correct?
Side note, I'm all for the true innovators being able to patent drugs (like semaglutide) that they put a lot of research dollars into, but seriously fuck all these additional "method of delivery" and "formulation" patents that are bullshit that just get added on later by the patent holder solely as a way to try to restrict the entry of generics into the market after the original patent expires.
Everyone can make their own compounding drug in their basements, thanks to Telegram and other hidden platforms: source sema/tirz, get bac water, mix them.
I’m generally happy to see IP disrespected.
Then you’ll eventually be generally unhappy to see no new medications come out.
A significant change to IP doesn't necessarily mean the world stops working on things. It just pivots us to a new set of problems.
China disrespects IP and has the fastest growth of anywhere, and has medications
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There seems to be an explosion of drugs for fat loss. No signs of slowing down.
> blantatly skirting patent laws
Implied but not explicitly stated in the FDA announcement: the compounders’ real crime is not paying their protection money.
Mochi health too