Comment by gjm11
13 years ago
I'm not commenting on this article specifically (not least because I haven't read it), but there are plenty of articles that deserve little more than "middlebrow dismissal".
Very likely one could find plenty of more interesting things to say about those articles. One can find interesting things to say about anything. But if an article is about an attention-grabbing subject, is superficially plausible, but is just plain unsound in the sort of way the grandparent of this comment is alleging, the "middlebrow dismissal" -- predictable as it is for the cognoscenti -- may still be the most useful thing there is to say about it, and a comment thread that didn't have "please note, this is probably wrong in the usual way" near the top of it would be a bad and misleading one.
If HN is worse off for being full of middlebrow dismissals, the real problem may not be the middlebrow dismissals but the articles that provoke them.
I'd been thinking about this. It's true that sometimes an article is so obviously mistaken that the most valuable comment would be one that pointed out how. But such articles are fairly rare here. Ideally comment threads in which the top comment was a dismissive one would be proportionately rare. Whereas now they're almost like background radiation.
I agree, but I'm not sure that there is any other way to establish positive discourse -- for most posts there are the enthusiasts and the middlebrow detractors, and virtue may often only appear after both of these positions are raised and discarded in favor of an hopefully Aristotelean mean. This is also to say that appropriate discourse depends largely on the context (i.e. what has already been said on the topic), and not simply on a single right answer (as in the sciences).
It would be interesting to do some sentiment analysis on comments and look at the statistics of dissmissive/approving top comments and all comments in general in HN threads.
I think the way to solve this is by better education and reinforcement. Wouldn't hurt to place a prominent link in the top nav like"better commenting" that went to a page with explanations and examples of good and bad. Perhaps have it up there one week per month.
There are many articles that should be dismissed, but when every time I click on the comments, I know somebody will be saying something negative about the article (and usually something fairly obvious and uninteresting), then I can't help but agree with PG that there is intellectual snobbery rather than real, interesting discussion happening.
You don't get many points for interesting. You get points for cynicism and negativity.
What I find interesting is that I often learn/gain or notice something from these middlebrow dismissal comments. I am not saying they are all good - but many here make legitimate, logical and scientific points. With the rise of blogging and other open/free channels of self publishing, these comments are often necessary rebuttals to the overhyped tones present in many articles.
Every dismissive comments not a "middlebrow" comment. There are some people here with some really great knowledge. I love the "highbrow" dismissals because that's when I learn something new.
What the article itself deserves is a minor issue.
What the HN discussion deserves, though, is different. We as a community can do much better than that. We do, sometimes. We can more often.
Perhaps a challenge for anyone who feels that an article really must have a middlebrow dismissal---
Limit your dismissal to a few sentences, then follow on with a paragraph or two of thinking that goes beyond the dismissal into areas of thought sparked by the subject of the article. What bigger picture might it factor into? What underlying phenomenon may be behind it? What additional understanding can it add for us as a community?
I certainly won't try to speak for pg, but one thing to keep in mind is that this is a good way to approach topics if you're trying to come up with new ideas that have big potential. Merely pointing out the existing problems is the first step. Take the next few as well.