Comment by bluGill
7 days ago
You know who they didn't interview: those who regret saving so much. Many of those people are dead and so the regret is something we can only apply on assumption that they would. I've known a few people who unexpectedly died before they hit retirement age. I've know a few people who retired and died suddenly. The vast majority of people in a "first world" country have an expected lifespan of about 80 - but there is a statistical curve and people start dieing in significant numbers at 65, while you are not an outlier until you make it to near 100 (though some exist).
You need to have some emergency savings. You should save for retirement somehow. If you can structure the above as insurance - and you can trust the insurance - (I know a few cases where the insurance type system went bankrupt and those with a "policy got nothing") that is best.
Once the above is taken care of though, you can't take it with you (at least in most religions) so spend it. Save enough, but not too much.
People who save a lot are typically people comforted by sitting on a big nest egg. Saving a lot for retirement and then dying the day before retirement isn’t necessarily going to be a source of regret, because they had 30 years of warm fuzzy feelings about eventually hatching their nest egg. They could have spent it all instead, and had a life full of anxiety.
You’re looking for people who didn’t want to save but begrudgingly saved at the expense of their pre-retirement life and then died before they could enjoy retirement. That’s a much smaller group.
That’s what I was thinking. I’m a simple man, and a part of me just enjoys seeing the line go up. Be it because stock prices go up or because I have simply put a bit more cash into a savings account, I simply like the feeling of “I have more money now”.
Now, I realize that this is a privileged position. I have a yuppie software job that pays well, and as such I can afford to have savings and still afford to do fun things. I don’t go on luxury cruises or super fancy restaurants, but I do try and travel fairly often with my wife, and as long as we’re a little frugal about it we can go on a “big trip” once or twice a year without it being something that hurts us much financially.
I'm not sure. There is a warm fuzzy from knowing you are okay if things go bad of course, but how many of those who saved for the feeling would have saved less - they still would want a good amount saved for things going wrong of course but not that much.
I’m a saver. I’ve had coworkers tell me I “live like a poor person.” I disagree, but can see how it might look that way sometimes.
The thing is, I have everything I want. On serval occasions I’ve gotten a bonus or something and decided I should recklessly spend a certain percentage of it. It’s hard, because there is nothing I want. I spend months trying to come up with ideas and buy some stuff, but rarely all of it. This last year, I just stayed at a really expensive hotel to finish out the reckless spending budget… and think I would have been happier at a less nice place. I own my home, my car is paid off, I go on a nice trip or two each year. I’m not sure what else I’d want.
I like the idea that I could buy something more than the reality of having it. In many cases, I find the idea of having more things stressful. Having multiple homes or cars just sounds like work. A boat sounds like a nightmare; the best boat is a friend’s boat.
If I won the lottery, my big splurge would probably be selling my house and going back to renting. I liked not having to care about anything as a renter.
My grandma lived to 104, and had she lived another couple months, there would have been a lot of uncomfortable talks about where the money would come from to keep supporting her. She died with about $1k left to her name. You could say she did it perfectly, but this caused a lot of stress for the people taking care of her. She also got lucky with various benefits, which a lot of work went into getting. She lived a very frugal life, so this was not overspending on her part… she just lived a long time. I don’t want anyone who might be taking care of me to need to worry like that, and I don’t want to need to worry either. I don’t know how much I’ll need, but would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it… and I don’t feel like I’m making any sacrifices for that. What would make me miserable is having to go back to work in my 70s, because I spent too much money on nonsense I didn’t even want when I was younger due to social pressure.
There is a lot of freedom is not being saddled with payments or expensive stuff. If I lost my job, I could probably make ends meet working just about anywhere. This gives me so peace of mind, and if I didn’t want to work for a few years, I could do that too.
I do like to buy nice stuff when I do buy things. I often wish I didn’t. I feel like there is also freedom is not having a bunch of nice stuff. When it’s too nice, the stuff ends up feeling like it needs to be treated with kid gloves and protected. I’d like to feel less attached to some of my things.
In college there were 2 kids who shared a dorm room and they had basically nothing. They never locked their door, because there was nothing to take. Move in/out probably took 10 minutes. I kind of envied the amount of freedom that gave them. I think about it often, even decades later. I knew other people who were robbed and they were always stressed out.
If people have ideas of things to spend money on to “save less”, I’m all ears. I have been out of ideas for years.
This is more fleshed out in the book "Die with Zero" which may be a bit too extreme.
But in general you have three things to spend in your life: time, money, and effort.
You don't want to spend all your time saving money because you'll run out of time eventually, but you also don't want to spend all your money saving time because you'll run out of money.
It's all about balance and thoughtfully understanding what you actually want and how to get it.
Money can be passed down to your children and grandchildren though.
You won't be able to in the future unless you are very wealthy.
Countries cannot afford the benefits and healthcare promised to retirees. So governments are getting more grabby. That pattern seems to be occurring in many countries.
New Zealand example: when you are in nursing or elderly care you must spend all your savings and sell your home. The retirement age also needs to increase - one fund suggested to 70+ https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/586737/retirement-age-wi...
Netherlands example: new capital tax 36% rate. A capital growth tax (vermogensaanwasbelasting) applies to stocks, bonds, savings, and cryptocurrencies. A separate capital gains tax applies to real estate and startup shares, taxing only upon sale.
US: see medical debts.
Articles usually talk about savings as though you can bank some funds while working, earn interest, and withdraw the savings later.
Don't deceive yourself thinking like that.
"Savings" cannot work in the future due to demographic issues (especially due to people living longer) even if you saw it work in the past.
Look at how many workers support one retiree. In New Zealand it used to be 7 workers to one retiree, and in the future it looks like 2 workers to 1 retiree.
This is a core issue for anyone below retirement age. Not only do we deceive ourselves about solutions, we are deceived by articles and history.
2 replies →
If you follow the fairly common path of "various expensive, intermittent medical problems for a couple decades, a handful of years of very-bad medical problems, nursing home, then hospice care" in the US, and you don't have a shitload of money, you don't really have a savings of your own, you're just temporarily taking care of the medical and end-of-life-care industries' money. There's not going to be much to pass down.
This becomes more true by the year, as those costs keep rising faster than broader inflation.
1 reply →
You can do it before you die if you want to do that. They're not much helped by you sitting on it until you die.
2 replies →
> you can't take it with you (at least in most religions) so spend it.
I don't understand this PoV at all.
I can't take it with me, sure, but I'm happy anyway if I leave it behind to my kids.
This PoV that you need to spend, spend, spend to get the most value for your money is very primitive - my kids will do better if I die before touching my nest egg, and if I don't at least I'll have a longer runway to live without working.
There is no downside here, other than the artificial one that dictates you spend it all and leave nothing behind.
The point is just not to impoverish yourself in order to save more than you need. You don't have to spend, spend, spend, but don't eat rice and beans every night just so you can have more money than you'd ever need in retirement.
This is one of those things where generalized advice often makes little sense because circumstances are so different. If you make $500,000/year, you can save half of your take-home pay and still live very well, and have a ton of money when you retire. If you make $50,000/year, you might struggle to save at all if you're supporting a family, and there's going to be a lot of tension between saving for retirement and occasionally having some nice things before retirement. Living in poverty to save for retirement and then dying before you can enjoy any of it would be a sad outcome here. But if you're more towards the upper end of this spectrum, those cautionary tales sound a lot like "spend spend spend."
Why are you working to earn that money - take unpaid time off to spend with the kids.
i get what you are saying, but leaving money to the kids isn't the answer. (Other than collage money)
> i get what you are saying, but leaving money to the kids isn't the answer.
Why not?
If I never found a good use for it, why is it better to spend it on something I don't value than leaving it to my kids?
I'm not being facetious - I'd really rather like to know why it is preferable for my to purchase stuff I don't want rather than leave it to my kids?
> I can't take it with me, sure, but I'm happy anyway if I leave it behind to my kids.
You would be happiest if you could take it with you. Since you can't, you'll leave it to your kids, because it would even worse leaving it to somebody else.
The people who are against saving are also the people who want you to spend all your money on their product. It’s just the capitalist wanting more meat for the grinder.
Money is just an abstract, and the less it circulates, the less stuff gets done. For no purpose but insecurity.
The ideal would be that everybody operates without savings and without debt. Either of those tools only being used exceptionally, when the benefits are enormous.
2 replies →
This sort of high time-preference rabid consumptionist hucksterism is a symptom of the opposite of capitalism. A capitalist must favor saving because an economy grows through capital formation, which happens only following thrift and savings.
> Once the above is taken care of though, you can't take it with you (at least in most religions) so spend it. Save enough, but not too much.
I get it to a certain extent, don't live in poverty if you don't have too, but I am a major saver. I rarely buy new things if an old thing is working fine. If I die early at least my family will will be set.
Really the social safety nets in the US are basically non-existent so having a big savings buffer makes me feel a bit safer. Honestly dying early doesn't worry me too much, I'll be dead so doesn't bother me. What does worry me is the economy tanks and all my saving become worthless. Then I would have some regrets...
I save out of a combination of buying into minimalism as a kid (though obviously it's nuanced) but also out of laziness, lol.
You just get taken in by life though, it isn't even about saving for some idealized retirement to me. As you age and your parents get old and you have kids and a spouse you just live less and less for yourself. You have to adopt a mental state where you feel gratification in sacrificing for others, if you constantly regret the things you can't do because people depend on you, you will drive yourself nuts. That sort of "I am a reliable provider and helper" mentality lends itself to obsessively building up a "safety net" because you can feel good about how stable and safe you make your loved ones.
Indeed. In fact, I would go further and say than, more than saving money, one should make preparations for a dignified passing should one's time come early. Living happy, dying before a gruesome disease completely erases that treasure. And, if destiny has it that one gets old enough, and one does so with little more than a camping tent, leaving this world because the night was too cold and one succumbed to hypothermia beats what most people get at the end.
As someone who used to save too much, I agree.