Comment by swiftcoder
5 months ago
> Sounds like they didn’t build a proper clean room setup: the agent writing the code could see the original code.
It doesn't matter how they structure the agents. Since chardet is in the LLM training set, you can't claim any AI implementation thereof is clean room.
Yeah I mention that in the question.
Might still be valid for closed source projects (probably is).
I think courts would need to weigh in on the open source side. There’s legal precedent is that you can use a derived work to generate a new unique work (the spec derived for the copyrighted code is very much a derived work). There are rulings that LLMs are transformative works, not just copies of training data.
LLMs can’t reproduce their entire training set. But this thinking is also ripe for misuse. I could always train or fine-tune a model on the original work so that it can reproduce the original. We quickly get into statistical arguments here.
It’s a really interesting question.
I just wrote a long comment about that, but yes, you are on to something here.
The key to me is that the LLM itself is a derived work and that by definition it can not produce something original. Which in turn would make profiting off such a derived work created by an automated process from copyrighted works a case of wholesale copyright infringement. If you can get a judge to agree on that I predict the price of RAM will come down again.
> There’s legal precedent is that you can use a derived work to generate a new unique work (the spec derived for the copyrighted code is very much a derived work)
Indeed, but in the clean room scenario, the party who implements the spec has to be a separate entity that has never seen the code. Whether or not the LLM is copyright infringing is a separate question - it definitely has (at least some) familiarity with the code in question, which makes the "clean room" argument an uphill battle
So by that logic, you're not legally allowed to implement your own character detector and license it as your own if you've ever looked at chardet's source code? I'm confused. I thought copyright laws protect intellectual property as-is, not the impression it leaves on someone.
Well, you are not making things easier for yourself by looking at that source code if the author of chardet brings a case for copyright infringement against you.
The question is: if you had not looked at chardet's source would you still be able to create your work? If the answer is 'yes' then you probably shouldn't have looked at the source, you just made your defense immeasurably harder. And if the answer is 'no' then you probably should have just used chardet and respected its license.
Sorry, but that sounds like a witch hunt to me, not modern law. Isn't the burden of proof on the accuser? I.e. the accuser has to prove that "this piece of code right here is a direct refactoring of my code, and here are the trivial and mechanical steps to produce one from the other"? And if they present no such evidence, we can all go home?
6 replies →
> if you've ever looked at chardet's source code
If you wish to be able to claim in court that it is a "clean room" implementation, yes.
Clean room implementations are specifically where a company firewalls the implementing team off from any knowledge of the original implementation, in order to be able to swear in court that their implementation does not make any use of the original code (which they are in such a case likely not licensed to use).