Comment by Aurornis
6 days ago
> People liked cigarattes too.
Cigarettes weren’t made illegal. Cigarette companies are not liable for their user’s choice to consume them. What’s your point?
> Perhaps that example was a little too revealing on your end. Netflix doesn't have/need Section 230 protections and they're doing fine.
Perhaps it was a little too revealing on your end that you conveniently ignored my other example of Reddit.
If you need to cherry pick to make your point it doesn’t look very strong.
I still don’t see consistency in your argument that Section 230 should still apply to Hacker News but not, for example, Reddit, simply because one of them allows users to personalize the content they see.
> Cigarette companies are not liable for their user’s choice to consume them.
They kind of were. Not completely liable, but partially. Because... um, well, uh, yeah, they are. They are literally liable.
If you produce cigarettes, you are partially responsible for people smoking. Smoking is also not a "choice", come on now. The only people who believe that are people trying to sell you cigarettes or people who have never smoked.
That's why you can't advertise cigarettes anywhere anymore and they're very hard to find. And, when you do find them, the box tells you "hey please don't smoke this". R.J. Reynolds didn't do that by fucking choice, we forced them.
> They kind of were. Not completely liable, but partially. Because... um, well, uh, yeah, they are. They are literally liable.
Cigarette companies are not legally liable for the consequences their users encounter.
It’s really hard to have an actual discussion about anything when people are just making up their own definitions.
Cigarette companies paid billions, and continue to pay, for the societal harm they cause. That's a liability. They're not legally liable in the sense that nobody is going to jail. But they have financial liabilities. Because they do, literally, cause financial harm.
I don't think people really understand just how harshly we ran Tobacco companies into the ground. Many pay more per cigarette for liability than they pay to make the cigarette.
In the narrow definition of the term you are using, cigarette companies were found legally liable.
The whole reason they got sued and regulated was because they hid the fact that they knew their product was causing cancer in its users.
There’s additional regulation on cigarettes, which also includes higher taxes on its sale.
We regularly put limits on industries which create externalities that have to be borne by the exchequer.
> Cigarette companies are not legally liable for the consequences their users encounter.
Ok! But they do have to follow a bunch of extra laws that cost them a ton of money and/or users.
Therefore the same can apply to social media algorithm companies.
The one extreme example, is just like cigarettes, there could be 18+ age verification for social media. There a big deal.
This is the type of comment that suggests you aren't engaging with what I'm saying beyond a superficial level. My argument is consistent. I'm not cherry-picking examples. The differentiator I'm criticizing is the personalized nature of the algorithms. But rather than engaging with the merit of that distinction, you're acting as if there is no distinction at all. I'm not sure if there is much point in contuning the conversation from there.
I think the other person's issue with your position is that the distinction is entirely arbitrary. You're not giving any reasons why the demarcation line for which feed algorithms are OK and which are not is there instead of anywhere else. It seems to be just "Facebook and TikTok are bad; Their feeds are personalized recommendation engines; Therefore personalized recommendation engines are bad, and other feed algorithms are OK".
>I think the other person's issue with your position is that the distinction is entirely arbitrary.
Basically all laws related to speech are abitrary. Can you define a clear and self-evident line between pornography and art as an example? Or do you agree with the Supreme Court that we just "know it when [we] see it"?
>You're not giving any reasons why the demarcation line for which feed algorithms are OK and which are not is there instead of anywhere else.
Let me just copy and paste what I said before: "The type of HN algorithm that serves the same content to every user based off global behavior is fine in my book because it is both less exploitative of the user base and a reflection of that user base's proactive decisions in upvoting/downvoting content." I can understand if one of you want to challenge that line of thought, but you both acting like I didn't give any reasoning at all is bizarre and gives me the impression that you aren't actually reading what I'm writing.
13 replies →
Of course Section 230 would apply to both sites, but only to the user-generated part of each site, because that's what Section 230 says.