Comment by gruez
7 hours ago
>in the US and UK
???
Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them. It is an issue for UK, though.
7 hours ago
>in the US and UK
???
Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them. It is an issue for UK, though.
Funny how it's a horrible misrepresentation slurring the honor of the United Kingdom to exaggerate the penalty of not unlocking your phone for His Majesty's Law Enforcement, but US border cops being allowed to ask foreigners for the same thing upon pain of not being allowed to enter the country (something that no one seems to care about other nations doing?) is totally the same thing.
> Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them.
This is not totally true. It is also a US issue: CBP has been asking for passwords (or to unlock the device) for phones and computers for more than a year now. Last year, multiple people got turned around because they disagreed with US policies and political views that differ from those of the US's current president.
You don't have the protections of U.S. law at the border.
CBP is also asking, not compelling. You don't have to give them your password. If you don't, and you're a foreigner, you may be turned away. If you're a citizen, and I remember correctly, they can seize your device for up to two days if they want.
But they're not going to put you in prison for refusing like the U.K. and Hong Kong will.
If you're a US citizen, I believe they can seize your device indefinitely, and detain you for up to two days. They are required to let you eventually back into the country though.
(If you're not a citizen, all bets are off)
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You dont have protectiond of US law on the border, inside the border and barely if you are a citizen far away from border. Realistically.
And also actually per law. And yes, being forced to give out passwords and make profiles public as a rputine thing is much worst then being forced to give out password when there is actual warrant.
CBP has absolutely put me in jail (not prison) for refusing to answer questions (including the strip search and being put in chains and handcuffs). As well as threatening to revoke my passport (though they could not). On another occasion they threatened to deport me even though I'm a US citizen. On yet another, they faked a drug dog hit then dragged me to multiple hospitals, racking up bills in my name while claiming I was packing drugs up my ass. I am still being chased by debt collectors for the last one.
I've contacted multiple lawyers and the answer got was they've tried cases like these before and they always lose so they don't take them anymore. Though this was pre-Trump, now it's suddenly in vogue to take up longshot border or immigration cases.
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I don't approve of CBP's approach here, but being denied entry to the country isn't punishment, even if it might feel like it at the time. And that only applies to non-citizens, where entry is fairly reasonably at the government's discretion. Citizens must be admitted regardless.
Rules at the border tend to be pretty restrictive almost everywhere. You can literally get in trouble for having a sandwich in your bag. I'd wager Hong Kong border control was also empowered to request phone passwords and turn away refusers long before this change.
Do you ever travel outside your own country? Do you think you should retain some basic privacy rights while you do that?
It’s not even good for business. Business laptops and phones have trade secrets to conduct regular company activities.
Normalizing the surveillance dystopia we live in ON HN is beyond my understanding.
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> Last year, multiple people got turned around because they disagreed with US policies and political views
so they were not in US technically?
Exactly, everything is in "technically" because, for example, to the best of my knowledge, JFK airport is located in the US.
There are plenty of articles that actually explain that the practice is illegal, but the gov doesn't really care about its legality + there is no organization able to fight it, and even if there were, the Supreme Court would likely be in favor of the US gov.
What is private life if it can be broken for no reason? What is freedom of speech if it doesn't apply to the people who don't agree with you?
Upon entering the US, CBP can ask you to unlock your phone, then connect it to a little box that hacks into the phone and downloads everything. Search for "Cellebrite Universal Forensic Extraction Device (UFED)" or "Grayshift GrayKey". The border agent doesn't have to know anything about phones/computers, it's just "plug in, press button". With modern phones, they really only work if you unlock your phone before handing it to them, and they'll make you do that. If you don't unlock the phone and let them walk off with it for awhile, they'll refuse you entry into the USA and send you back.
US citizens are, of course, allowed in even if they refuse, but they will confiscate a citizen's phone in exchange for a custody receipt (Form 6051-D) and they are supposed to return it to the US citizen after they break into the phone / crack the encryption. If they can't crack it, they can choose to never return the phone to the US citizen. And it can be a very stressful situation in which citizens may not know what their rights are in the moment (or can't afford to replace their phone or lose access to it because how would you even get an Uber from the airport or coordinate a pickup if you don't have a phone).
You can choose to bring burner phones or make sure your phone is freshly factory reset, but if you're a non-citizen that can also be a reason to be refused entry, and if you are a citizen that can "get you on a list", leading to getting "SSSS" stamped on every boarding pass for every flight you take, in every country in the world, for the next many years. If your boarding pass gets "SSSS" written on it, you will get pulled aside by security and all your bags get individually hand-searched prior to every single flight (even transfers/connections/layovers). This will be a global thing, not limited to USA flights.
Non-citizens are also sometimes asked for a list of your social media accounts and the passwords to their social media accounts. Refusing to provide your passwords can be used as a reason to refuse entry to the USA. If the USA believes you have a social media account that you failed to tell them about, that can also be a reason to refuse entry.
No but .. but the constitution.. but...
> Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them
Under the present administration I wouldn't be surprised if for example ICE tried the $5 wrench method.
Depends, you can get NSL'd to disclose passwords. Good luck running that one up to the supreme court. And biometrics aren't as well-protected. Though, yes, in the UK it's a much more routine affair.
>Depends, you can get NSL'd to disclose passwords
Source? Given 5th amendment protections I'm guessing this only covers snitching on others, but that's standard subpoena law. If you're issued a subpoena to produce documents on someone else (eg. a customer of yours), you can't refuse. It's called protection against "self-incrimination" for a reason.
The above probably meant a point that current democracies are increasingly sliding into the same hole as authoritarian governments. Amount on encroachment of governments and big corporations on personal freedoms and democracy in "democratic" countries is quickly becoming intolerable under a guise of safety and "save the children" mantras
You have never crossed the border into the Great US of A then
It's possible to cross the border many times and not have this happen.
okay, but it is also possible to have it happen.
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I take it you haven't crossed the border recently?