Comment by laweijfmvo
1 day ago
to your last question, yes we should! the issue isn’t us losing our 50+ hour work week jobs, it’s that our current governments and societies seem fine with the notion that unless you’re working one or more of those jobs, you should starve and be homeless.
This is a theory I can't support well beyond hypothesising about what a post-employment democracy might look like, but I strongly suspect democracy doesn't work in a world where voters neither hold any significant collective might and are not producing any significant wealth.
Democracies work because people collectively have power, in previous centuries that was partly collective physical might, but in recent years it's more the economic power people collectively hold.
In a world in which a handful of companies are generating all of the wealth incentives change and we should therefore question why a government would care about the unemployed masses over the interests of the companies providing all of the wealth?
For example, what if the AI companies say, "don't tax us 95% of our profits, tax us 10% or we'll switch off all of our services for a few months and let everyone starve – also, if you do this we'll make you all wealthy beyond you're wildest dreams".
What does a government in this situation actually do?
Perhaps we'd hope that the government would be outraged and take ownership of the AI companies which threatened to strike against the government, but then you really just shift the problem... Once the government is generating the vast majority of wealth in the society, why would they continue to care about your vote?
You kind of create a new "oil curse", but instead of oil profits being the reason the government doesn't care about you, now it's the wealth generated by AI.
At the moment, while it doesn't always seem this way, ultimately if a government does something stupid companies will stop investing in that nation, people will lose their jobs, the economy will begin to enter recession, and the government will probably have to pivot.
But when private investment, job loses and economic consequences are no longer a constraining factor, governments can probably just do what they like without having to worry much about the consequences...
I mean, I might be wrong, but it's something I don't hear people talking enough about when they talk about the plausibility of a post-employment UBI economy. I suspect it almost guarantees corruption and authoritarianism.
Everyone wouldn't starve in a few months. There is more than enough food and I have faith it'd be given out. The starvation we see today in a world where most genuinely have a chance to get out of it is nothing like a world in which people can't earn an income.
The government only has as much power as they are given and can defend, and the only way I could see that happening is via automated weapons controlled by a few- which at this point aren't enough to stop everyone. What army is going to purge their own people? Most humans aren't psychopaths.
I think it'd end in a painful transition period of "take care of the people in a just system or we'll destroy your infrastructure".
> The government only has as much power as they are given and can defend, and the only way I could see that happening is via automated weapons controlled by a few- which at this point aren't enough to stop everyone. What army is going to purge their own people? Most humans aren't psychopaths.
I think you're right for the immediate future.
I suspect while we're still employing large numbers of humans to fight wars and to maintain peace on the streets it would be difficult for a government to implement deeply harmful policies without risking a credible revolt.
However, we should remember the military is probably one of the first places human labour will be largely mechanised.
Similarly maintaining order in the future will probably be less about recruiting human police officers and more about surveillance and data. Although I suppose the good news there is that US is somewhat of an outlier in resisting this trend.
But regardless, the trend is ultimately the same... If we are assuming that AI and robotics will reach a point where most humans are unable to find productive work, therefore we will need UBI, then we should also assume that the need for humans in the military and police will be limited. Or to put it another way, either UBI isn't needed and this isn't a problem, or it is and this is a problem.
I also don't think democracy would collapse immediately either way, but I'd be pretty confident that in a world where fewer than 10% of people are in employment and 99%+ of the wealth is being created by the government or a handful of companies it would be extremely hard to avoid corruption over the span of decades. Arguably increasing wealth concentration in the US is already corrupting democratic processes today, this can only worsen as AI continues exacerbates the trend.
Humans have political power because of our ability to enact violence, same as it ever was. Until the military is fully automated and theres a terminator on every corner that remains true. Even then there are more than enough armed americans to enact a guerilla campaign.
> "don't tax us 95% of our profits, tax us 10% or we'll switch off all of our services for a few months and let everyone starve – also, if you do this we'll make you all wealthy beyond you're wildest dreams".
What does a government in this situation actually do?
Nationalizes the company under the threat of violence.
> Once the government is generating the vast majority of wealth in the society, why would they continue to care about your vote?
Because of the 100 million gun owners in this country? I find it incredibly hard to believe people as a whole will lose political power because of their incredible ability to enact violence in the face of decreasing quality of life.
The only way to avoid corruption is to take power out of human hands. Historically, this had meant shifting the power to markets, but when markets cease to function in a way that allows people to feed themselves, we will need to find another way.
I hate to say it, but gold bugs, crypto bros, and AI governance people might be onto something.