Comment by wraptile
11 hours ago
I used a macbook for almost 2 years and genuinely don't understand how people can tolerate these machines. My wrists would be cut up all the time to the point where I looked like I was self harming myself and the glary screen is entirely unsuable anywhere but a darkest basement. Not to mention the terrible keyboard. To this day I'm perplexed how macbooks have such high desirability by full time developers when they're almost unusable.
I hear people complain about laptop ergonomics all of the time and I don't understand it. I have zero issues with either of my Macbooks. I can go for hours and not be fatigued.
If I have it in my lap, the outer ball of each wrist is resting on the body to the left and right of the trackpad and that means my forearms are angled upwards, away from the edges. They never rest on the edge of the laptop until I use the trackpad, and then the puffy outer pad of my palm is resting on the laptop edge. Still very comfortable.
If I'm using it at a desk it's the same story. My seat is high enough (relative to the desk) that my forearms lift up and away from the laptop. Never resting on the edge.
Are people seated so low so that the desk height is at breast level and they're making T-Rex arms to reach the keyboard? It seems so intuitively obvious to avoid such positions.
That sounds like you have your desk too low. You're going to get some major repetitive strain injuries in 10-20 years.
If you have your arms at your sides, elbows should bend 90 degrees. Then just move your arms slightly forward and you'll end up somewhere around 95 degrees. Now you can rest your forearms on the desk. This won't save you from all kinds of RSI, but it might help your wrists, elbows and shoulder joints last a bit longer.
Having the desk low, the chair high, or putting a laptop on your lap is okay. Having the desk or table "high" (i.e. at normal height for writing with a pen or eating a meal) is generally worse but not an insurmountable problem.
In either case, the most important thing is to keep your wrists in as straight and neutral position as possible, with your palms and wrists "floating" rather than resting on anything while actively typing. Having the wrists either flexed downward or extended upward is a really bad idea. Having the wrists turned out to the side isn't great either, but not as bad.
The keyboard should be positioned close enough to your body so that your shoulders can be relaxed with your upper arms hanging loosely. The laptop surface should be roughly parallel to your forearms, so if you have a high desk or table relative to your torso you will need to prop up the far side to tilt it up a bit.
You don’t even need 20 years, I spent the better part of a year in my mid 20s in pain because I was typing with my wrists at an upward angle like GP is describing.
Ergonomics is one of those things where you don't understand it until it effects you. Everyone can tolerate discomfort at some level and at different levels but obviously there best practices that manufacturers can partake in to make hardware more ergonomic.
For example, the monitor should be at eye level vertically but with laptop that's very hard to accomplish unless you position yourself in a reclined fashion to bring down your eye level closer to your lap - on a macbook you get wrist cuts like this.
One of the most important thing that makes a good ergonomic laptop is the ways it accomodates as many positions and setup as posible so your can rotate your working position to avoid excessive strain on one particular area. So when your back is tired you slouch down, when your wrists are tired you straighten up, when your eyes are tired you adjust the display brightness/theme etc.
When taken seriously it's totally possible to work safely even in poor conditions like outside or on a train but devices that completely ignore ergonomics just don't even give you the chance.
> the monitor should be at eye level vertically
This is slightly misleading advice. The ideal place for the display has the top of the display at roughly eye level, or for a very large display maybe slightly above, which puts most of the display below eye level. Humans actually have great ability to look slightly downward for long periods of time while doing stuff with their hands, even while keeping their head held up straight, and indeed our eyes can more comfortably focus on close objects in the lower part of our field of view than straight ahead. What you don't want to do is slouch or bend your neck too much.
A laptop display attached to the keyboard usually isn't an ideal placement, but it's generally not too bad.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
In trying to picture this, I suppose there are certainly some stock photo models who'd feel the sharp edges:
google.com/images?q=person+using+laptop
I totally know what you mean about shifting positions. All the positions I've been in where I've felt the edges have been quite unergonomic, but perhaps not for everyone.
People come in all sorts of different shapes, sizes, and configurations. I don't have any pressure on the sharp edges in my normal day-to-day, and I'm having a little trouble figuring out how I'd contort myself to change that, so that particular issue is fine.
The glare is annoying. I would like to work outside more often.
Mind you, I don't really like the poor isolation and floating ground causing a tingling sensation when you touch it while charging, the lid hinge doesn't quite have enough internal resistance, the keys get stuck way too easily, etc. The sharp-corners build defect is fine for me though.
I’m really flummoxed at why the MacBooks continue to be spicy. When using then laptop with a charger using the grounded cable on the socket side there used to be no spice. Now that adapters are mostly only used with two prong connectors the spicyness is ubiquitous.
I recall audio equipment also not being grounded because the industry prefers not being grounded over being accidentally grounded to two different grounds causing voltage transients. Maybe the same reason now also applies to MacBooks? Or does someone know another reason why the outer shell of a MacBook is still spicy.
> Now that adapters are mostly only used with two prong connectors the spicyness is ubiquitous
One can still obtain the 3-prong pigtail instead of the little 2-prong inline plug, and that one grounds correctly.
Unfortunately they only seem to make a 3-prong inline version in about 3 countries.
same. i thought it was me, but every mbp has been spicy and leaks current like crazy.
As others have mentioned: battery, build quality, Linux-ish ecosystem. If I could get all three in another laptop I would go for it, but nothing comes close at the moment. There was a very brief moment in time where the XPS came close, and then the M series rolled out and eradicated the competition on performance + battery life.
oh fr. macs are garbage dev machines. display gives me headaches. keyboard is terrible, it hurts. speakers are the best part.
the lock screen doesnt show battery charge level. dead battery? mac wont start for 15 min on connecting power... still need half ass homebrew
> dead battery? mac wont start for 15 min on connecting power
Having just received an M4 in the mail with a completely flat battery, I can confirm this is nearer 10 seconds on Apple silicon (you are correct it used to be this way on Intel Macs)
Having an M1 and an M2, no it isn't. Takes at least 5 minutes on the 65W charger to get bootable from a full drain. Maybe something changed with the newer models but it isn't a benefit across all Apple Silicon.
The build quality and least-nonsense OS is why I like it. Huge caveat though, I keep it plugged into a KVM setup so I don't actually use it directly, but I do keep it open on the side of my desk for meetings.
Laptops are unergonomic by default, no matter how you position them, either the screen is too low or the keyboard is too high. I think most developers just use them docked with an external monitor and keyboard most of the time (I certainly do).
it's not a binary equation. My thinkpad is plenty ergonomic for a full work day on the road. Sure the monitor position is suboptimal but keyboard is brilliant, no sharp edges, no screen glare and there's a trackpoint. It's no home setup obviously but at least I don't actively suffer when I do need to use a portable computer for it's primary purpose.
On the other hand, placing your laptop on your belly when lying down on a couch is peak computing ergonomics.
I don't like the sharp corners either and I fully support the modifications in the article, but to be completely fair to the design, if your wrists are digging into the corners you're at the wrong angle. If you're habitually typing with bent wrists you're going to have problems. The "butterfly" keyboard was also (famously) terrible, but the newer ones, especially with the proper inverted-T cursor keys, are fine (for a laptop) imho. My ideal laptop keyboard would be split and orthogonal, but that's far too weird to make it anywhere close to mass production.
This is just me but I like short travel keyboards. Long travel “mechanical” switches set off the RSI in one of my wrists.
I don’t care about the sharp edges because 1) they’re not actually that sharp. 2) I don’t rest my wrists on them.
I mostly work from a desk with an external monitor and the laptop cantered below it. I avoid mice and try to use keyboard shortcuts.
I’ve used Dells, HPs and Thinkpads and the current MacBook Pros are still my favourite design.
Horses for courses, I guess.
This is why I prefer tactile (not clicky) mechanical keyboards to linear mechanical or "mushy" non-mechanical desktop keyboards: they're easy to reliably trigger without full travel.
I also like the short-travel Apple keyboards, though, and if Apple made a tenkeyless Magic Keyboard with the standard layout for cursor movement keys, I'd probably be using it.
Oh yeah I hate those sharp edges on MacBooks. The old pre-unibody macbooks were great but I can't stand anything that came after it. Always had red lines on my wrists. These days I'm completely off Mac luckily.
And yes the keyboards are terrible too. Up to 2015 it was OK but I can't work with the butterfly ones and the "new and improved" scissor ones that came after that. They still have a lot less travel than the ones from up to 2015.
I never sanded my metal macbooks though I did do so with a plastic one I had. I just didn't really use them much as laptop anymore.
I had one of those pre-unibody white plastic Macbooks. I hated the sharp edge on the front. With the later models it was less of an issue somehow.
Like Mr Jobs said, “You’re holding it wrong.”
I have a plastic case which helps with the bottom, and when I'm at an angle where my wrist rests against the edge, I have a wrist brace thing that takes the edge off (literally).
It's been a problem for a decade (or more?) but, for me, it's not just the sharp edge, it's also the angle of the keyboard.
My Dell XPS is almost as sharp (there's a microscopic chamfer, which won't be enough to explain the difference), but because the body is wedge-shaped, the keyboard sits at a slight angle which makes it feel so much better to me. Propping the back of the Macbook on something helps - only needs to be 2-3mm to make a difference.
It's like the static electricity issues that plagued them in the 2010s. They produced shocks that were actually painful, the sort that I've only experienced before from CRT screens in metal housings. The chargers contained a grounding pin internally, but it wasn't actually connected to anything. Utter madness, and would have been such an easy thing to fix - but it persisted until they replaced the charging port with usb-c.
a positively angled keyboard is actually less ergonomic (at least for most people), and a holdover from typewriters.
> The chargers contained a grounding pin internally, but it wasn't actually connected to anything. Utter madness
That is standard procedure in consumer electronics actually.
My work MBP is charged via external display and sure enough, I get zapped every now and then. The bundled charger also has just two pins.
I am with you. But we are somehow a minority. Cannot decide weather we are oddballs or people just love to drink the Kool aid that much.
I switched as a long time Linux user to a MacBook because of the hardware:
- Battery: no other laptop comes even close
- Trackpad: I don't use a mouse anymore, no other laptop comes close
- Audio: No other laptop comes close
"Sharp edges" really don't bother me to be honest, I wouldn't have noticed it if nobody told me.
I have a nano-texture screen, and it works great in daylight.
Just goes to show how opinions can differ.
My only complaint is with the EN-international keyboard my company prefers - there is no way to reverse the tilde key position back to the same place next to 1 on the US keyboard. The OS knows what keyboard the laptop has and refuses to change it.
I've created my own keyboard layout plus do some key remapping on my mac. Are you sure this won't work for tilde?
The tilde key exists in the key map here: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/tn2450...
You can see how I did mine here if you're interested: https://github.com/bruse/dotfiles/tree/main/macOS (I suspect com.local.KeyRemapping.plist is most interesting, but the key layout file is there too, with some comments on how it was generated).
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I remember multiple reviews of other laptops that indeed came close in all of those categories. So those statements are objectively wrong.
Problem is that I dont remember which, and if I remembered the model might very well not be in stock anymore. The other vendors with their always changing lineup of models make that impossible by choice.
But the above criteria are mostly subjective, so objectivity largely doesn’t apply.
The HP ZBook G1a comes close in computing power, screen, sound and trackpad quality - but not at all in battery life: about 7 hours. It's also pretty overpriced, but discounts are common.
"comes close" in itself is a very relative concept. So how can you claim my statements are "objectively wrong"?. Depends on how close "close" is, right.
If you can provide me an example of a laptop that beats one of those categories, it's objectively wrong. In all other cases, nope.
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Or that it's a unix with taste that can render fonts correctly and has UI APIs that aren't absolute trash.
I'm pretty sure Apple doesn't pay any "influencers", but maybe they're doing the Mormon church thing and buying ads?
> can render fonts correctly
macOS font rendering has been worst in class since they removed subpixel-antialiasing. It's now a blurry mess on regular displays.
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Fonts rendered correctly is kind of useless on a glary screen.
> pretty sure Apple doesn't pay any "influencers"
It's true they probably don't need to, since they have a bunch of fanatics who buy whatever Apple releases just because it's Apple
macbooks are mostly social media consumption machines anyways
Do you also have glass bones and paper skin?