Comment by ownagefool
1 day ago
It depends what you're doing it.
My app is fairly simple node process with some side car worker processes. k8s enables me to deploy it 30 times for 30 PRs, trivially, in a standard way, with standard cleanup.
Can I do that without k8s? Yes. To the same standard with the same amount of effort? Probably not. Here, I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS ( or your preferred cloud provider ).
Where things get complicated is k8s itself is borderline cloud provider software. So teams who were previously good using a managed service are now owning more of the stack, and these random devops heros aren't necessarily making good decisions everywhere.
So you really have three obvious use cases:
a) You're doing something interesting with the k8s APIs, that aren't easy to do on a cloud provider. Essentially, you're a power user. b) You want a cloud abstraction layer because you're multi-cloud or you want a lock-in bargaining chip. c) You want cloud semantics without being on a cloud provider.
However, if you're a single developer with a single machine, or a very small team and you're happy working through contended static environments, you can pretty much just put a process on a box and call it done. k8s is overkill here, though not as much as people claim until the devops heros start their work.
Call me old fashion but I prefer tools like Dokploy that make deployment across different VPS extremely easy. Dokploy allows me to utilize my home media server, using local instances of forgejo to deploy code, to great effect.
k8s appears to be a corporate welfare jobs program where trillion dollar multinational monopolistic companies are the only ones who can collectively spend 100s of millions sustaining. Since most companies aren't trillion dollar monopolies, adopting such measures seems extremely poor.
All it signals to me is that we have to stop letting SV + VC dictate the direction of tech in our industry, because their solutions are unsustainable and borderline useless for the vast majority of use cases.
I'll never forget the insurance companies I worked at that orchestrated every single repo with a k8s deployment whose cloud spend was easily in the high six figures a month to handle a work load of 100k/MAU where the concurrent peak never went more than 5,000 users, something the company did know with 40 years of records. Literally had a 20 person team whose entire existence was managing the companies k8s setup. Only reason the company could sustain this was that it's an insurance company (insurance companies are highly profitable, don't let them convince you otherwise; so profitable that the government has to regulate how much profit they're legally allowed to make).
Absolute insanity, unsustainable, and a tremendous waste of limited human resources.
Glad you like it for your node app tho, happy for you.
K8s is just a standardized api for running "programs" on hardware, which is a really difficult problem it solves fairly well.
Is it complex? Yes, but so is the problem it's trying to solve. Is its complexity still nicer and easier to use than the previous generation of multimachine deployment systems? Also yes.
I wrote a scheduler for VMs a long time ago. k8s is basically just the same thing but for containers.
It really confuses me how someone can argue for cloud providers over a decent open solution without realising their argument is simply they don't want to be managing the thing.
And that's fine, most teams shouldn't be neck deep in managing a platform. But that doesn't make the solution bad.
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Just as a quick aside, I tried Coolify, Dokploy, Dockge, and Komodo, and if you're trying to do a Heroku-style PaaS, Dokploy is really good. Hands down the best UX for delivering apps & databases. It's too bad about the licensing. (e.g. OIDC + audit logs behind a paid enterprise license.)
Coolify is full of features, but the UX suffers and they had a nasty breaking bug at one point (related to Traefik if you want to search it.) Dockge is just a simple interface into your running Docker containers and Komodo is a bit harder to understand/come up with a viable deployment model, and has no built-in support for things like databases.
If you're open, love to get your thoughts on https://miren.dev. We've doing similar things, but leaning into the small team aspects of these systems, along with giving folks an optional cloud tie in to help with auth, etc.
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I use Cosmos Cloud on a free 24g oracle VM. Nice UI, solid system
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Isn't Dokku a worthy mention anymore?
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I took over tech for a POS company some years ago. They were a .net shop with about 80 developers, less than 200 concurrent connections, 6 figures spend cloud, and 0 nines uptime with a super traditional setup.
Point being, it's not the tools the causes the probem.
Read this as a Piece of sh... company. Then I saw response of someone saying they're a POS developer and was like oh I think he means point of sale.
Or that guy is just a really bad programmer.
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Just curious, are you still looking for developers? Asking as someone who is a developer that works with POS systems.
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> I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS
I think Amazon ECS is within striking distance, at least. It does less than K8S, but if it fits your needs, I find it an easier deployment target than K8S. There's just a lot less going on.
I ran renderapp in ECS before I ran it in k8s.
The deployment files / structure were mostly equivalent with the main differences being I can't shell into ECS and I lose kubectl in favour of looking at the AWS GUI ( which for me is a loss, for others maybe not ).
The main difference is k8s has a lot of optionality, and folks get analysis paralysis with all the potential there. You quickly hit this in k8s when you have to actually need the addon to get cloudwatch logs.
This is also where k8s has sharp edges. Since amazon takes care of the rest of the infrastructure for you in ECS, you don't really need to worry about contention and starving node resources resulting in killing your logging daemon, which you could technically do in k8s.
However, you'll note that this is a vendor choice. EKS Auto Mode does away with most of the addons you need to run yourself, simplifying k8s, moving it significantly closer to a vendor supported solution.
> I can't shell into ECS
Is there a specific reason why you can't shell into ECS? IIRC, I was able to do so by following the guide [0].
[0] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/containers/new-using-amazon-ecs...
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That or fargate if your just running a few containers.
Totally, it's all about the primitives. I'm curious where exe.dev is gonna build on the the base, or just leave it up to folks to add all their own bespoke stuff to do containers, logs, etc.
The last 20 years has given us a lot of great primitives for folks to plug in, I think that lots of people don't want to wrangle those primitives, they just want to use them.
> a) You're doing something interesting with the k8s APIs, that aren't easy to do on a cloud provider. Essentially, you're a power user. b) You want a cloud abstraction layer because you're multi-cloud or you want a lock-in bargaining chip. c) You want cloud semantics without being on a cloud provider.
This is well put and it's very similar to the arguments made when comparing programming languages. At the end of the day you can accomplish the same tasks no matter which interface you choose.
Personally I've never found kubernetes that difficult to use[1]. It has some weird, unpredictable bits, but so does sysvinit or docker, that just ends up being whatever you're used to.
[1] except for having to install your own network mesh plugin. That part sucked.
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