Comment by ordinaryradical
18 hours ago
It feels like the market is full Wiley Coyote on frontier model makers, and I like Anthropic's B2B business model.
But all progress points to a commodification of foundation models--Google first named it as "we have no moat, neither does anyone else." So there must be some secondary play driving this, right? Hardware sales? Hedging for search ad revenue?
Still feels mispriced. I think asset inflation leaves too much money desperate for the Next Big Thing.
Google does have a sort of temporary moat. They have a much better hardware supply line story than anyone else and the revenue to maintain that edge indefinitely.
This is the thing - Google is a real company with well established business, money of their own, hardware, server farms, etc. ChatGPT and Anthropic have none of that in the same way google does. They have an incentive to lie and 'fake it till you make it' so they can get out of the 'risk zone' of collapsing back in on themselves. Google can throw money at Gemini all day.
That may be true for OpenAI, less so for Antropic - which has much better margins. Both of these companies CEOs have come in public saying the same.
No doubt as of currently Google has a better business. But the same argument could have been said about Instagram or Whatsapp before Facebook (now Meta) acquired them.
Running AI at a loss long enough to kill the competition would run afoul of antitrust laws. Even more so since they’re bundling their AI products with their search monopoly.
Although I doubt this will stop them if they think it’s advantageous…
Lower real operating costs isn't the same thing as below cost pricing.
US law here is nuanced. Good quick primer https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...
I thought that these type of antitrust laws are in no way enforced anymore in the tech industry. And that it's been that way for decades. I mean the sheer existence of Google shows that right? What about Maps, Mail, Books... basically everything apart from Search? Why would an AI Mode as one category of Search results be any different? They're not actively promoting Gemini in those search results. They're simply augmenting it with this new tool that exists now.
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> run afoul of antitrust laws
Now, that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.
> antitrust laws. Even more so since they’re bundling their AI products with their search monopoly.
couldn't this just be framed / spun as just using search data as training? i don't seem being bundled enough to run afoul with anti-trust.
> Running AI at a loss long enough to kill the competition would run afoul of antitrust laws.
Running at a loss long enough to kill the competition is basically the name of the game these days.
When Uber started, they were basically setting VC money on fire by selling rides at a loss to destroy the taxi market.
Who's going to enforce antitrust laws in this environment, pray tell?
>would run afoul of antitrust laws
Buwahahahahahahahhahah
They drop a little cash on some shitcoin the president controls and those problems go away.
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If AI is commoditising, who is Bahrain and who are the Saudis?
The company with the access to cheap and plentiful energy and the real estate to build data centers will be Saudi Arabia in your analogy.
This is why SpaceX could be a dark horse in this race. Putting compute in space is expensive but so is building a data center in the US.
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What does that mean?
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The app layer is Bahrain.
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I don't get why people are so gung-ho about these companies having a moat.
As a user and a consumer, I don't want them to have a moat. Moat means pseudo-monopoly. That is the exact opposite of what we want.
Only the investors and owners want a moat, to keep others out.
So what they're doing? They're competing. Good.
> I don't get why people are so gung-ho about these companies having a moat.
Because they are investors, VCs, or startup founders who hope to establish their own moats.
Users and consumers can get a lot of useful information from HN, but it's important to keep the local demographics in mind.
I haven't thought about any secondary play, but if these companies converge on Google's TPUs, they would probably eagerly slice from NVIDIA's current market.
> In September 2025, Google is in talks with several "neoclouds," including Crusoe and CoreWeave, about deploying TPU in their datacenter. In November 2025, Meta is in talks with Google to deploy TPUs in its AI datacenters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_Processing_Unit
I keep getting notification from my tooling that gemini models are overloaded so we switched you to openai. So I feel google is not ready to sell tpu’s just yet.
"we have no moat, neither does anyone else." is just an employee's personal work blog
The “no moat” comment is from May 2023, very early in the LLM era. Agents were not a thing yet, it was all just text generation.
The integration of LLMs with tools and data via agent harnesses has created the opportunity for a real moat. As these products start differentiating, the moats will develop to be significant.
We have no moat could be a bad assessment. First, the models have personalities, and that matters. I like talking Claude better. OpenAI is really different from Grok. The ai models are an extension of the main concern of the company they’re in.
Also those personalities, quirks and choices accumulate. A lot of people talk about using Claude Code and Codex for different things. This is 100% my experience. Some people make better models, but on the top 3, there are often differences that are fixed only by switching between them. If I feel the need to switch between them, then there are significant enough differences and those differences will accumulate.
You don't need a moat if you're selling shovels and everyone's digging holes.
YouTube is a kind of moat for Google.
YouTube is not the moat, ad block is.
No YouTube competitor can rise because ad blocking is so pervasive and celebrated. People think (selfishly) that ad blocking is some niche thing, the but the reality is that it's around 30% on average, and up to 70% if you have a tech literate audience.
So we have paid competitors, like nebula and curiosity stream, but those are essentially dead because they have to compete with "free" YouTube.
The internet is, pretty predictablely, totally unwilling to look in the mirror.
Interesting. Wanna expand?
It is the biggest collection of video to train LLMs on.