Comment by charcircuit
3 days ago
>See kernel level anticheat nonsense.
This nonsense mainly exists only because the operating system is unable to attest that it the app is secure and the right app is what is running.
>It's their computer, it should run whatever software they want.
I agree, but companies shouldn't be forced to match cheaters with legitimate players. Cheaters just can't secretly be cheating.
To defend my own freedom, I'm forced to defend scoundrels as well in a totally unhinged manner. So be it.
> the operating system is unable to attest
And it should remain unable. There should be no "attestation" of anything. The corporations who want such things should remain unsure of the device's "security". They should just accept it. Let them write it off as a cost of doing business or something. The optimal amount of fraud is non-zero, as they say.
> the app is secure and the right app is what is running
These machines are our personal computers. They are extensions of our minds. They are general purpose tools with limitless potential, just waiting to be shaped in accordance to our wills.
There is no such thing as being "secure" from us. Not inside our own computers. The mere idea of it is offensive. It is an affront to us all. We are the gods of these machines. To attempt to "secure" a video game of all things against us is an attempt to usurp our power.
> Cheaters just can't secretly be cheating.
Now that remote attestation is in play, the ability to do that -- forge attestations to pretend to be a corporate owned machine while remaining free and subversive -- has become key. So I'm forced to say that cheaters absolutely should be able to secretly cheat. If the cheater wants to edit his computer's memory or whatever, it's his divine right as the owner of the machine. An inability to do that means our freedom is lost.
Cheating in video games is literally nothing compared to the loss of our computer freedom. Let the entire industry go bankrupt if it must. We cannot sacrifice it no matter what, and certainly not over something as mundane such as video games. There is so much more at stake here. Ubiquitous access to cryptography. Adversarial interoperability. Our very self-determination in the digital world. Video games are nothing -- and that's coming from a fellow gamer.
I don't see any consumer nor developer demand to make cheating in multiplayer games an inherent tenant of a computing ecosystem. Attestation is just an optional feature that expands what is possible. Services have no obligation to check attestation or use it as a hard signal to block people. All previously existing freedom is still possible on your computer.
> Attestation is just an optional feature that expands what is possible.
So optional that everything that can require it will require it. Games want it because cheating. Streaming services want it because piracy. Banks want it because fraud. Web sites want it because advertising. Governments want it because encryption and anonymity.
> Services have no obligation to check attestation or use it as a hard signal to block people.
They will do so of their own free will.
> All previously existing freedom is still possible on your computer.
You're "free" on your paperweight of a computer that can't do anything useful because it can't interface with the rest of society. Maybe one day even ISPs will reject clients that can't pass attestation. Can't even join the internet if you "tampered" with your machine. Such is life in the land of the free.
1 reply →
The problem is not that the OS can’t attest the app is secure. The problem with cheating is that the game servers cannot attest the client is genuine in all aspects that matter: non-modified client, running in an environment where there is no inspection of its memory for map hacks, aim bots, and more. The only way to do that is a remote attestation of the entire chain: hardware, locked down OS, app. (If the OS isn’t locked down it can’t prevent the player from running cheating software.)
The choice is simple: tolerate some level of online cheating, or require remote attestation to run the game. If you ask me, I’d rather take the first option. Locked down game console already make me a bit queasy. A locked down desktop, laptop, or palmtop? That’s not acceptable. People should be able to run any program they want on their computers. If that means the end of online gaming, so be it.
The solution to cheating is what we used to have: moderated, privately owned servers, and invite-only servers.
Let the cheaters join the cheat-friendly servers or the foolishly unmoderated servers.
I agree, but then you lose the convenience of centralised match making, and I’m guessing, a number of predatory monetisation schemes. Allowing third party servers however would be a very good way to stop killing games.
I don’t believe intrusive anti-cheating is required for online gaming to flourish. But even if it was, I would give up Elite Dangerous, for which I have bough a VR setup and build my cockpit, before I give up full control over my PC.
This is typically handled by the game offering a modding API for people to make mods with. This API limits mods to do things which will not be cheating.