Comment by khriss
2 days ago
The superhuman efforts that folks on HN make to find technical workarounds and solutions is wonderful to see, but we must realize that this is not a technical problem. It's a social and legislative one. It can't be fought on technical grounds. The push back has to be via putting pressure on politicians by making regular people more aware.
Right now, the vast majority of users are being bombarded with a one sided narrative of how 'insecure' their devices are. They read almost everyday about someone losing their life's savings due to 'hackers'. In this environment, they genuinely believe locking down their devices will make them more secure and prevent them from being 'hacked'.
The powers that be make sure that the people never hear the other side. That people are giving absolute control to large corporations. In my experience, once the issue is framed as 'Google will decide what you can do with your phone' every single person is immediately outraged.
If you want to make a meaningful contribution, however small, then make it a point to educate people about the control they are giving to large corporations like Google. It doesn't take much to convince them that Google et al don't have their best interests in mind. They already know it and have experienced it. The second thing to do is to encourage them to reach out to their member of congress via letters. It's easy enough to do, and politicians are terrified of going against voters. They rely on people's ignorance to quietly work against their constituent's interests while supporting whichever special interest happened to donate the most to their campaign fund.
> In my experience, once the issue is framed as 'Google will decide what you can do with your phone' every single person is immediately outraged.
Apple already does this and practically no one is outraged
Because Apple always did this, everybody knew this and people buy Apple exactly because of this.
Google now pulls the rug on Android which is a whole different story because it used to be open. The whole idea of Android was to be open.
The biggest mistake is that people trusted a company that, in reality, isn't that different from Apple. Just because everyone claimed Android as the true open source alternative to iOS, when only AOSP was that.
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> Because Apple always did this, everybody knew this and people buy Apple exactly because of this.
Is that really so? Does the average iPhone user actually factor the app store tax into their decision to purchase the device? Or do they just assume that is just how all software works because they have no exposure to software ecosystems outside the iPhone app store
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People do not buy Apple because of this. They buy Apple for other reasons and this comes along with it. Apple could allow side-loaded apps and not a single person would switch
> Google now pulls the rug on Android which is a whole different story because it used to be open. The whole idea of Android was to be open.
This is the narrative for us in developed nations, but the majority of users today are people who were in developing countries and got a mid-tier smartphone to chat with friends and do banking with the same values as Apple users.
this is that xkcd "regular people can only name a few common feldspars" meme. over 90% of consumers have no knowledge at all of tech corps' philosophy on user freedom, they just buy cheap phones that have good cameras and run instagram and tiktok well.
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I agree with this. The general population is hopeless, they will hand literally anything away for the least amount of friction. They are also profoundly ignorant.
The solution should be to provide the tools necessary to preserve as much agency using technology to people who want to. You should also keep in mind the middle tier technical people who need a bit of hand holding. But do not waste your time on the general public because they don't share or comprehend your goals.
No, they calculate in the fact of that lack of control into their purchase decision. They mostly didn't want that control in the first place. They just want to _______, for many things you can fill in the blank, including things like look good, appear classy, get high, get laid...
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Yes, but most people don't realize it, simply because they have been conditioned from the beginning that the only way to run anything on an iOS device is via the app store.
With Apple customers, a better argument to make is to say that Apple applies a 30% 'tax' on all activity on their phones. That they are being forced to pay more compared to non Apple users in spite of having bought their device fair and square.
Developers may or may not pass on the fees to customers, but as a user I'm not forced to pay anything and it definitely doesn't apply to all activity on the phone. I pay the same for Netflix as any Android user does. My cell bill wouldn't drop 30% by switching to Android. When I buy something at Amazon I'm not paying more than you.
Also, you're overestimating the fees. Few apps or services hit the 30% threshold or stay there for long (the fee for subscriptions drops in the second year).
The real problem IMHO is Apple taking a significant amount out of developer pay checks. Users are fine. The impact is on developers.
I have been using Apple devices for almost 20 years, and I have never been forced to pay a 30% tax on all activity on my phone. I can avoid it by buying directly from the seller's website, and also I just avoid buying software subscriptions in general, but especially from the App Store.
99% of the payment activity I do on my phone (buying retail goods, travel arrangements, paying invoices) has no additional cost.
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Flaunting money seems to be a big selling point for many apple drones.
Frame it as "America will decide what you can do with your phone" and people in Europe will listen.
Frame it as "the government will decide what you can do with your phone" and people in America will listen.
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> Apple already does this and practically no one is outraged
Apple ran a very successful propaganda campaign where they portray themselves as the protectors and enforcers of a secure environment where users are safe from attacks from the wild internet. See Apple's spin on blocking cookies. Therefore, users of Apple products are conditioned to believe these measures exist for their own personal benefit, unlike Google which is presumed to be motivated to abuse your trust.
> It doesn't take much to convince them that Google et al don't have their best interests in mind. They already know it and have experienced it.
I think with Apple in particular, this is the issue. Apple have largely demonstrated that they _do_ often have the users best interests in mind (or at least at some point have had) on the basis that the users are Apple’s primary customers. Yes, Apple lock down iOS functionality but this has often been to deliver innovative features. Users don’t mind that they’re in a walled garden because, they like the walled garden.
This is where Google is a different case. Google’s interests are aligned with mass data collection rather than products people love. Most Google users have experienced how this impacts them negatively at some point, usually with the degradation of their products, and constant advert spam.
Google is an example of a company that the mass majority assumes to be in the wrong. Apple often isn’t.
Most people just do not think about this as much as we do.
We understand that, as the saying goes, if you're not paying for something then you are the product.
But less technical people don't consider that, and don't have hoards of technical friends to convince them otherwise. They just think: they using the product, so they're the user, right? We know that's true but it's not the same thing as customer. Most people don't have that distinction in their head.
It's even partially true that Google does want to do things that attracts and retains users, because that's a prerequisite for selling them to advertisers. In my experience, that's an upper bound on the amount of thought most non-technical people would give it.
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Apple is the classic “good king”. By and large they have used their power in ways that benefit users. Other than enriching apple, there’s been no direct or apparent harm to the end user from the walled garden. I know that is a controversial point, but harms we don’t ever know about are pretty hard to get upset about.
But the “good” king never lasts. They’re always eventually replaced by a despot, and all the power you ceded to the “good” king falls into the hands of the bad king. Which is why ceding that power is a bad idea, and kings are a terrible system of government.
> Other than enriching apple, there’s been no direct or apparent harm to the end user from the walled garden.
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/society-equity/apple-...
I don't want to hear about how this isn't Apple's fault. This isn't the big bad orange man forcing Apple to act against its will; it's a business arrangement between Apple and the president. He gets censorship, they get a weaker EU.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/defe...
Please explain what makes them good? They make a better product than most, but they also charge more than most. That's just a business model.
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Their business model revolves around people to choose to pay them for products, which aligns them with customer interests on a fundamental level. They have to work within those constraints when they engage in lock-in chicanery
Most of the other big tech companies make their revenue from other companies paying them to leverage the influence they have over their users. So they are not constrained in the same way.
I believe that most Googlers are pretty aligned with the principles of the HN crowd, but Google the machine is not.
That's perhaps where the part about educating less tech-savvy folks comes in. There are even professionals in tech under the mistaken belief that Apple meaningfully adds value in exchange for one's freedom to use one's device as one chooses. Big Tech loves normalising the story how only they can help
And it was a huge mistake. The laws are the same for everyone. If Apple can do this then so can Google.
Apple doesn't own re-captcha. Apple's walled garden is still a tragedy but its a tragedy of willing participants.
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> In my experience, once the issue is framed as 'Google will decide what you can do with your phone' every single person is immediately outraged.
I've had a lengthy debate about this (in the context of right-to-repair) with a friend of mine who's outside tech and he genuinely held (still holds?) the opinion that the manufacturer has the "right" to decide how their products are used. I'm willing to bet that this is a common viewpoint of people outside the tech sphere, they just want a device that "works", which for them is essentially just "I can use apps from the App store".
> 'm willing to bet that this is a common viewpoint of people outside the tech sphere, they just want a device that "works", which for them is essentially just "I can use apps from the App store".
Perhaps some people were just conditioned to believe that these shackles are forced upon them for their own good, because only bad people would ever want to take them off.
Seriously, finding bootlickers aren't hard. The better question to ask is how many voters are bootlickers and that typically hovers around 20-30%, so the follow-up question should be what type of platform could capture the remaining 70-80% of the electorate?
Turns out right to repair laws are very popular with voters and small business owners. Maybe we all start to tread down that path more and figure out what sorts of regulations pressures companies into adopting open standards?
Did you ask whether your friend have a car? I think it's much easier to get the point if the story comes to someone's 10 year old but still okay cars.
e.g. Without proper regulations, your maintenance can become nearly impossible.
I mean I agree with you. But also, it's not that unreasonable of an opinion. As long as it's coupled with optionality, which I think is the actual issue. Well the actual "issue" is that most people don't care or think that much at all about it. HN is a very special crowd.
For people who are just technology consumers they don’t see what could be offered, only what is. This is so frustrating when one understands how railroaded everyone is into maximizing platform ad revenue while holding the reasons people go on the platforms out as a carrot on a stick that gets further and further away. It’s 300 PHD psychologists vs someone just trying to keep up with their family.
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I just submitted a survey to my state's DMV to encourage them to ditch reCAPTCHA. I went to renew my plates and had to do almost a dozen "click the picture" screens to get through on IronFox on my GrapheneOS phone the other day. Luckily no QR code with the whole Play Integrity check, but that wouldn't have been out of the realm of possibility.
There is a tradeoff between the freedom users have on their devices on one side, and the likelihood less sophisticated users will get their information stolen or their devices pwned and used to DoS innocent websites on the other side.
If you don't address this tradeoff you're not really engaging the issue.
What I think we need is a professional, well-informed advocate of freedom who is willing to seriously discuss the tradeoff and concede that neither extreme is ideal.
> What I think we need is a professional, well-informed advocate of freedom who is willing to seriously discuss the tradeoff and concede that neither extreme is ideal.
There is no shortage of well informed advocates of freedom. The question is, which forum should they discuss this in? There is no meaningful forum for such a debate which will have any real effect on policy and that's by design.
The only place that can both debate and effect policy changes in the legislature and politicians will never take the people's side against corporations on an issue until they fear losing reelection.
Hence the ask to educate the people around you and to encourage them to reach out to their representatives.
> If you want to make a meaningful contribution, however small, then make it a point to educate people about the control they are giving to large corporations like Google.
This is a fool's errand. We live in a time without virtuous values, where convenience is king. The masses don't care about cookies or consent, they accept all. They only understand direct punishment.
Generalizing like this is a fool's errand, if anything. We care, and we are part of the "masses". If this is something you care about, share with others: there will be those who value it.
HN is NOT part of the “masses” in the sense “masses” is being used here.
A difference is being drawn between HN users who are interested in tech, and the everyone else. Most of humanity has little interest in Tech, and would rather spend their time on other things.
This also means they are less aware of ways to keep themselves safe, or less on top of whatever current threat is sweeping through the internet.
After multiple interactions on this site, I can say with some confidence that the average HN commenter does not have the same experience with technology that the average user does.
This divergence is resulting in different priorities and conversations.
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>This is a fool's errand.
It is absolutely not. Awareness is what people need right now because nobody is saying anything different then the established line. The more people that put there voice into this, the better off we are going to be.
I'm hosting a Surveillance Capitalism Presentation soon that I designed myself, I'll likely post it on the net when I am done. If you are interested in hosting a zoom call or an in person awareness campaign like this. Email me from my website[0] campaign form[1] and ill notify you when its online and you can download it and use it yourself to host your own venue.
[0]: https://www.scottrlarson.com
[1]: https://www.scottrlarson.com/forms/form-contact-campaign/
> The masses don't care about cookies or consent, they accept all. They only understand direct punishment.
Honestly, I can totally see where the cynicism is coming from, however if you think about it, that's a pretty condescending view. This effort might be Sisyphean, but things are not as dire as you might think.
People are already seething at how much their lives are being enshitified by Big Co. Even if 10% of voters reach out to their representatives, it would be a tidal wave. Politicians are terrified of the popular will and this is not a hill they are willing to die on. Just see the success of the right to repair movement as an example.
> The superhuman efforts that folks on HN make to find technical workarounds and solutions is wonderful to see, but we must realize that this is not a technical problem. It's a social and legislative one. It can't be fought on technical grounds.
This. No matter how good the intentions are, this represents the infrastructure that can be exploited to persecute individuals and groups and deprive them from the most basic rights.
And before anyone tries to downplay this as scaremongering, US legislators have introduced the legal framework to reject visas based on what comments the applicant may or may not have said in the past years regarding the current government.
I think part of it is the hackers that the media reports on are entirely malicious. Most hackers aren't, we just like computers
Evil people always get in the news.
Sadly much as I agree with OP, the reality is there are a lot of evil people, and some of them lead a country and thus have vast resources to attack with. We need to solve this problem, not just cry about what a few of us are losing.
Petitions are also a good way of reaching out to people and explain the dangers of these issues. Many people that usually sign petitions are notified of new ones, and, as a generalisation, they are usually fairly against big tech.
If anyone knows of any european petition around this please share them with us
> Right now, the vast majority of users are being bombarded with a one sided narrative of how 'insecure' their devices are. They read almost everyday about someone losing their life's savings due to 'hackers'. In this environment, they genuinely believe locking down their devices will make them more secure and prevent them from being 'hacked'.
Nope. It's not the issue. The issue is people genuinely want the security problem to be solved by someone else. Either governments or big companies. So they can just not care about security once and for all.
If people were so aware of so-called hackers and how insecure their devices are, we would have seen people stopped installing apps on their phones and basically use it as a web browser. But that's not what happens. The opposite is truer: if you run an even slightly popular website you will receive feedback asking if you have an app version.
> In my experience, once the issue is framed as 'Google will decide what you can do with your phone' every single person is immediately outraged.
Oh boy, you're going to be really surprised.
I agree with the direction, but not the blind spot.
Your audience is going to shut you out if you don’t show you understand their reality.
I reach out to people, and every tech and media person I know, is holding sessions on government over reach and invasion of privacy, raising alarm bells.
Everyone not in tech, has just about had it with being predated upon, being screwed over and in general would rather warm themselves on a bonfire of tech stock, than do a thing to support it. Voters are HAPPY to see tech brought under control.
The degree of fraud, predation, privacy invasion that regular adults encounter, let alone children, is absurd.
To take the most civil and benign trend I know: online communities are dying to a glut of slop, bots, and spam. Users and mods are simply unable to keep up with this, and are increasingly likely to ding users as much as bots.
A majority of humanity, who live in the developing world, encounter even worse, AND have less recourse to support.
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Success in these things requires connecting with people. You cannot do that if you come across as a know it all.
You must open with an acknowledgement that Tech is not doing a good job for users, but giving governments sweeping powers is not the antidote.
Is there a good primer on why this is bad? I know that it is on a technical level. But I havent heard anyone talk about in layman's terms Maybe I'll need to write something up. But it be great to have some resources as to why this is bad from a perspective other than my own.
I'm doing a presentation on Surveillance Capitalism soon and I might include this topic.
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