Comment by charcircuit
9 hours ago
If Windows wasn't so far behind Apple and the rest of the industry in regards to integrity APIs this wouldn't be necessary. It's embarrassing for Microsoft that someone needs to use a separate, more secure device since their security is so bad.
It's embarrassing for Hacker News that people here are commenting to support attestation systems that prevent you from owning the device you bought.
Attestation isn't against being able to do whatever you want with your own device. It just means that if you want other people to trust your custom device you need to get them to trust your signing key.
Pray tell, how might you get them to trust your signing key? Do you just email Mr. Pichai and ask nicely, is that enough?
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The intention behind it doesn't matter at all. In the end, it just means that only a few major operating systems are allowed, and the market is divided up among the established manufacturers. Anyone new to the market faces a major problem right off the bat, and trying to build something yourself doesn't work either.
Not sure if you’re being deliberately obtuse, but a signing key means nothing by itself. What exactly do you think is being attested TO?
Thats right: that the user can’t do what they want with their own device. Obviously your key wouldn’t be trusted if they could.
There is no other conceivable purpose that attestation could serve.
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Windows Hello offers an attestation API according to the releases I found, though because Microsoft has called at least four products "hello" now, I can't easily find the details. I don't think there's a technical reason why Google couldn't have released an app with a URL handler that uses that API except maybe for the Windows TPMs being less secure than mobile ones in general.
That attestation is for attesting you are using a TPM for user authentication. Which is different than attestation of integrity.
They do have some kind of attestation mechanism to actually attest the device state: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/attestation/tpm-atte...
It seems like the documentation for the feature is aimed entirely at MDM setups, though.
The basic API requirements are all there, and Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0, so I believe it should be possible for Google to build a Play Integrity equivalent around that.
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Integrity doesn't guarantee any security to your device, just that the device is same as from the factory. That's a common misconception.
"strong integrity" also takes into account if a security update has been installed recently enough. I don't believe hardware integrity spoofing has been accomplished on Android yet. Software integrity and compatibility with old hardware has been used to spoof device IDs and pretend a phone doesn't have the ability to do hardware attestation.
It's technically possible to exploit a kernel and get root access on a running device, of course, but the persistent root that is used most often will be detected by hardware integrity mechanisms. Exploit based root might be as well if it makes itself detectable enough.
> if a security update has been installed recently enough
In turn, this enables any tyrannical or anti-competitive demand which can be implemented in software, such as "user is not on the blasphemer list" or "all communications are being CC'ed to the Ministry of Truth."
> "strong integrity" also takes into account if a security update has been installed recently enough.
My Galaxy S10, last update in 2023 passes strong integrity.
With the little amount of security updates most Android devices have, I'm pretty sure you can find an exploit for pretty much everything except the most expensive flagships.
What does integrity really means when nobody really knows what's in the device and with a terrible software update policy anyways.
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>I don't believe hardware integrity spoofing has been accomplished on Android yet.
It has, but extracted keys aren't free.