Comment by dvt
4 hours ago
> I think that idea is deeply fascinating, AND have no problem that we still credit mathematicians with discoveries.
Most discoveries are indeed implied from axioms, but every now and then, new mathematics is (for lack of a better word) "created"—and you have people like Descartes, Newton, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Ramanujan, Galois, etc. that treat math more like an art than a science.
For example, many belive that to sovle the Riemann Hypothesis, we likely need some new kind of math. Imo, it's unlikely that an LLM will somehow invent it.
Creation is done by humans who have been trained on the data of their life experiences. Nothing new is being created, just changing forms.
A scientist has to extract the "Creation" from an abstract dimension using the tools of "human knowledge". The creativity is often selecting the best set of tools or recombining tools to access the platonic space. For instance a "telescope" is not a new creation, it is recombination of something which already existed: lenses.
How can we truly create something ? Everything is built upon something.
You could argue that even "numbers" are a creation, but are they ? Aren't they just a tool to access an abstract concept of counting ? ... Symbols.. abstractions.
Another angle to look at it, even in dreams do we really create something new ? or we dream about "things" (i.e. data) we have ingested in our waking life. Someone could argue that dream truly create something as the exact set of events never happened anywhere in the real world... but we all know that dreams are derived.. derived from brain chemistry, experiences and so on. We may not have the reduction of how each and every thing works.
Just like energy is conserved, IMO everything we call as "created" is just a changed form of "something". I fully believe LLMs (and humans) both can create tools to change the forms. Nothing new is being "created", just convenient tools which abstract upon some nature of reality.
> Aren't they just a tool to access an abstract concept of counting ?
Humans and animals have intuitive notions of space and motion since they can obviously move. But, symbolizing such intuitions into forms and communicating that via language is the creative act. Birds can fly, but can they symbolize that intuitive intelligence to create a theory of flight and then use that to build a plane ?
that’s why we say that with such discoveries we receive a new way – of looking, of doing, of thinking… these new paths preexist in the abstract, but they can be taken only when they’ve been opened. and that is as good as anything “new” gets. (and such discoveries are often also inventions, for to open them, a ruse is needed to be applied in a specific way for the way to open).
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"new kind of math"
Well I think the point is there is no "new kind of math". There's just types of math we've discovered and what we haven't. No new math is created, just found.
The map is not the territory.
I don't know what you're even trying to argue here.
We're not comparing math to reality (though there's a strong argument to be made that reality has a structure that is mathematical in nature - structural realism didn't die a scientific philosophy just because someone came up with a pithy saying), we're talking about if math is discovered or invented.
Most mathematicians would argue both - math is a language, we have created operations, axioms are proposed based on human creativity, etc., but the actual laws, patterns, etc. are discovered. Pi is going to be pi no matter if you're a human or someone else - we might represent it differently with some other number system or whatever, but that's a matter of representation, not mathematical truth.
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Where does this mathematics exist before we discover it?
I know of no realm where mathematical objects live except human minds.
No, it seems clear to me that mathematics is a creation of our minds.
Does that correction matter, tho…? Discovered or created, it would be new to us, and is clearly not easy to reach!
It could be that RH is independent of current mathematical axiom systems. We might even prove that it is some day. But that means we are free to give it different truth values depending on the circumstances!
This is also true for established theorems! We can can imagine mathematical universes (toposes) where every (total) function on the reals is continuous! Even though it is an established theorems that there are discontinuous functions! We just need to replace a few axioms (chuck out law of the excluded middle, and throw in some continuity axioms).
I think “new math” is ‘just’ humans creating new terminology that helps keep proofs short (similar to how programmers write functions to keep the logic of the main program understandable), and I agree that is something LLMs are bad at.
However, if that idea about new math is correct, we, in theory, don’t need new math to (dis)prove the Riemann hypotheses (assuming it is provable or disprovable in the current system).
In practice we may still need new math because a proof of the Riemann hypotheses using our current arsenal of mathematical ‘objects’ may be enormously large, making it hard to find.
what basis do you have for assuming an LLM is fundamentally incapable of doing this?
What's your basis for assuming LLM is capable of doing this?
I honestly don't know personally either way. Based on my limited understanding of how LLMs work, I don't see them be making the next great song or next great book and based on that reasoning I'm betting that it probably wont be able to do whatever next "Descartes, Newton, Leibnitz, Gauss, Euler, Ramanujan, Galois" are going to do.
Of course AI as a wider field comes up with something more powerful than LLM that would be different.
"I don't see them be making the next great song"
Meanwhile, songs are hitting number one on some charts on Spotify that people think are humans and are actually AI. And Spotify has to start labelling them as such. One AI "band" had an entire album of hits.
Also - music is a subjective. Mathematics isn't.
And in this case, an LLM discovered a new way to reason about a conjecture. I don't know how much proof is needed - since that is literally proof that it can be done.
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LLMs are already making the next great songs. Just check out the Billboard charts.
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> what basis do you have for assuming an LLM is fundamentally incapable of doing this?
because I have no basis for assuming an LLM is fundamentally capable of doing this.
Good on you for spelling out this reasoning, but it is manifestly unsound. For a wide variety of values of X, people a few years ago had no reason to expect that LLMs would be capable of X. Yet here we are.
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Except this has been said since the 2010's and has been proven wrong again and again. Clearly the theory that LLM's can't "extrapolate" is woefully incomplete at best (and most likely simply incorrect). Before the rise of ChatGPT, the onus was on the labs to show it was plausible. At this point, I think the more epistemologically honest position is to put the burden back on the naysayers. At the least, they need to admit they were wrong and give a satisfactory explanation why their conceptual model was unable to account for the tremendous success of LLM's and why their model is still correct going forward. Realistically, progress on the "anti-LLM" side requires a more nuanced conceptual model to be developed carefully outlining and demonstrating the fundamental deficiencies of LLMs (not just deficiencies in current LLMs, but a theory of why further advancements can't solve the deficiencies).
Incidentally, similar conversations were had about ML writ large vs. classical statistics/methods, and now they've more or less completely died down since it's clear who won (I'm not saying classical methods are useless, but rather that it's obvious the naysayers were wrong). I anticipate the same trajectory here. The main difference is that because of the nature of the domain, everyone has an opinion on LLM's while the ML vs. statistics battle was mostly confined within technical/academic spaces.
Ask an LLM to invent a new word and post it here. You will see that it simply combines words already in the training data.
Funny that the replies are dead. It's true that generally we shouldn't have AI output on HN but this case is an exception as we are explicitly asking for it, so it's interesting that people still flag the replies.
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You must be joking? Unless by combining words you mean digging deep into Latin and Greek etymology, finding something pithy and linguistically associative.
I can assure you, the percentage of people who can do what they do when it comes to crafting terms, and related sets of terms, for nuanced and novel ideas is very very small.
It happens this is something I do nearly every day.
Models respond to the level of dialogue you have with them. Engage with an informed perspective on terminological issues and they respond with deep perspectives.
I am routinely baffled at the things people say models can't do, that they do effortlessly. Interaction and having some skill to contribute helps here.
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Mathematics can be mostly boiled down to a few sentences with very lengthy possible combinations, so yeah that is not a problem
So LLM is german?
What does "new word" even mean?
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Because by definition LLMs are permutation machines, not creativity machines. (My premise, which you may disagree with, is that creativity/imagination/artistry is not merely permutation.)
I prefer to think of it as they’re interpolation machines not extrapolation machines. They can project within the space they’re trained in, and what they produce may not be in their training corpus, but it must be implied by it. I don’t know if this is sufficient to make them too weak to create original “ideas” of this sort, but I think it is sufficient to make them incapable of original thought vs a very complex to evaluate expected thought.
This "new math" might be a recombination of things that we already know - or an obvious pattern that emerges if you take a look at things from a far enough distance - or something that can be brute-forced into existence. All things LLMs are perfectly capable of.
In the end, creativity has always been a combination of chance and the application of known patterns in new contexts.
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god of the gaps
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What is creativity if not permutation? A brain has some model of the world and recombines concepts to create new concepts.
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It pretty much is, otherwise it is randomness or entropy.
LLMs by themselves are not able to but you are missing a piece here.
LLMs are prompted by humans and the right query may make it think/behave in a way to create a novel solution.
Then there's a third factor now with Agentic AI system loops with LLMs. Where it can research, try, experiment in its own loop that's tied to the real world for feedback.
Agentic + LLM + Initial Human Prompter by definition can have it experiment outside of its domain of expertise.
So that's extending the "LLM can't create novel ideas" but I don't think anyone can disagree the three elements above are enough ingredients for an AI to come up with novel ideas.
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That’s a fun turn of phrase, but hopefully we can all agree that math without scientific rigor is no math at all.
Do you think it’s possible/likely that any AI system could? I encourage us to join Yudkowsky in anticipating the knock-on results of this exponential improvement that we’re living through, rather than just expecting chatbots that hallucinate a bit less.
In concrete terms: could a thousand LLMs-driven agents running on supercomputers—500 of which are dedicated to building software for the other 500-come up with new math?
Math is not based on science!
Maths follows logical (or even mathematical) rigour, not scientific rigour!