Comment by snide
7 hours ago
I mostly share Josh's opinion, but I think a lot of these posts that talk about Senior vs. Junior experience when working with AIs is kind of rubbish. Sure, you get better results as a Senior working with AI tooling and struggle more as a Junior. Nothing has changed in that equation except the amplification.
What folks seem to avoid is that a Junior (in ANY subject) has the ability to LEARN so much faster with an AI research assistant, and that becoming an expert has accelerated for those with the personal stamina to dig deep (this as a requirement hasn't changed). I spend just as much time with my AI tooling asking questions as I do asking it to "build" or "fix" things. "How does this work?". "Can you suggest other tools?".
I think some people always think about AI as an input / output relationship, when a lot of the time, the fiddling in between, with or without AI was always the important part. Yes people will suck in the beginning, against they always did. I think the good folks though will suck for a MUCH shorter time than I did getting into things.
A lot of people will drop out and get discouraged. That happened before too. Learning things requires persistence. I think the only real case to be made is that AI's sense of immediate pleasure can neuter people away from running into friction. AI natives likely won't understand friction and question it.
>I think the only real case to be made is that AI's sense of immediate pleasure can neuter people away from running into friction. AI natives likely won't understand friction and question it.
This is key, I think, and gets overshadowed by people being offended by seeing bad vibecode or claims of 10x speeds, etc.
The most important learning that happens is not when we ask and get the answer to our question right away. It's when we stretch ourselves to seek out the answer, fail a few times, think deeply, then perhaps after a nap, solve the problem. That kind of knowledge is priceless because it not only gets you an answer it gets you some errant paths you can use to avoid problems in future problem solving as well as getting you increased trust in your own thinking.
If the next generations skip this step, they'll always think answers are supposed to be easy to find and will find themselves more and more dependent on AI and less and less confident in their own brains.
> If the next generations skip this step, they'll always think answers are supposed to be easy to find and will find themselves more and more dependent on AI and less and less confident in their own brains
This seems like a very polite way of saying they will become less intelligent and less capable
> What folks seem to avoid is that a Junior (in ANY subject) has the ability to LEARN so much faster with an AI research assistant,
You don't learn by reading, you learn by doing.
In this case, simply reading the output of an LLM isn't going to substantially educate you.
You’re not as senior as you think if you think reading code isn’t worth it. Do you think novelists just write novels from nothing? They read books. Software developers need to read software, too. When was the last time you read the code for the best open source software in your industry? I routinely read the libraries I use.
> a Junior (in ANY subject) has the ability to LEARN so much faster with an AI research assistant
I’m not seeing this. And based on what we’re seeing at the university level, I’m not expecting to.
I think the key word is ability, and I fully agree with that. Using GenAI as a teaching aid can supercharge learning, especially as it makes it very easy to learn by doing. The problem is that people use GenAI to do and hence don't learn.
(The preliminary research so far supports this: using AI to do the hard assignments produces poor learning outcomes, but using AI as a tutor, or even just for help with the hard assignments, produces slightly better learning outcomes.)
I think what you're seeing is the effect of the incentives of the system. The system uses simplistic numbers like grades as proxies for actual learning, and these grades heavily influence students' job prospects, and so you're simply seeing Goodhart's Law in action. Given how easy current methods of skill assessment are to game with AI, my guess is the entire system has to be overhauled.
> using AI as a tutor, or even just for help with the hard assignments, produces slightly better learning outcomes
Source? The few people I’ve seen try to do this wind up with a terrible understanding of the material, with large knowledge gaps and one or two fundamental fuckups. In every case, an introductory textbook would have been better. (It would also have been harder.)
Yes, I agree, the skills are orthogonal. Digital typesetting is vastly quicker than manually putting down metal type, and since you’re exposed to more type you have the opportunity to learn faster. But getting good at typography with digital tools will help you very little if you need to lay out type manually.
> getting good at typography with digital tools will help you very little if you need to lay out type manually
The analogy is unlimited typing in Gmail won’t make you a better writer or typesetter on its own.
I wonder how much of this is due to poor incentives at the university level?
I've seen this work well at a job when there's a feedback loop for juniors that incentivized them to learn with more scope and compensation
How did that business evaluate that the juniors were actually mastering concepts they had not known before?
> has the ability to LEARN so much faster with an AI research assistant, and that becoming an expert has accelerated for those with the personal stamina to dig deep (this as a requirement hasn't changed)
If anything it allows to be as lazy as possible. I have not seen anyone digging deeper with the AI tools.
I have been having a blast going back through topics I learned in college and haven't used in years. Being able to rubber duck specific questions and follow a path based on what I remember vs don't is much faster with LLM than it would be with textbook. However, I'm doing this because it is personally fun. I'm guessing if presented with a task I wasn't interested in the LLM would create exactly the opposite outcome. Thankfully I'm at a point in my career where I don't have a lot of stuff forced on me externally so this hasn't come up, but I can picture teenage me taking a much lazier path with a much different end result.
If you decide to dig deeper, it's an incredible tool. Getting a summary of the internals of something you only use as an API, then getting it to test you on it until you understand. It really allows you to learn a lot.
There are other axes as well.
Companies with AI will move faster than those without.
AI itself could subsume what we collectively consider as Engineering Taste.
AI is faster at what it does. So even if a junior costs less on his own than AI. Paying extra for AI means gaining first mover advantage.
> AI itself could subsume what we collectively consider as Engineering Taste.
Only if AI feeds on more taste than garbage.
> a Junior (in ANY subject) has the ability to LEARN so much faster with an AI research assistant
This is a testable hypotheses with severe lack of citations. Intuition would argue the opposite. We learn by using our brains, if we offload the thinking to a machine and copy their output we don‘t learn. A child does not learn multiplication by using a calculator, and a language learner will not learn a new language by machine translating every sentence. In both cases all they’ve learnt is using a tool to do what they skipped learning.
Actually, you're both right. Using AI as a supplementary learning aid -- i.e. students use AI as a personalized tutor but still do the assignments themselves -- produces better outcomes. But using AI as a crutch -- i.e. using it to do the assignments -- produces worse outcomes.
There is even preliminary research evidence for this, e.g. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/14/10/4115 and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666920X2...
This seems to me like one of those things where people go into it with widely different initial assumptions.
1. AI is for cheating and doing the work for you. Obviously it won't help you learn faster because you won't have to do any thinking at all.
2. AI is an always-available question answering machine. It's like having a teaching assistant who you can ask about anything at any time. This means you can greatly accelerate the process of learning new things.
I'm in team 2, but given how many people are in team 1 (and may not even acknowledge team 2 as even being a possibility) I suspect there may be some core values or different-types-of-people factors at play here.
This is also a testable hypothesis. I would like to see usage statistics before making assumptions here but my gut feeling is that an overwhelming AI usage (like > 90%) would fall into your category 1.
But even with category 2. I think that still does not absolve AI as a cheating machine. Doing research is a skill and if you ask AI to do the research for you that is a skill a junior developer simply never learns.
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As a precondition I think we have to assume that the person in question 1) wants to learn and 2) is smart enough to absorb new info and apply it and 3) reflects enough to adjust their approach when hitting bottlenecks or making mistakes 4) has a drive to create. Without these, self driven learning is not viable - and that has very little to do with AI.
For such a person, I believe AI can be very empowering for learning. Like Google, wikipedia and stack overflow, Arxiv before it - AI tools give access to a lot of information. It allows to quickly dig deep into any topic you can imagine. And yes, the quality is variable - so one needs to find ways to filter and synthesize from imperfect info. But that was also the case before. Furthermore AI tools can be used to find holes in arguments or a paper. And by coding one can use it to test out things in practice. These are also powerful (albeit imperfect) learning tools. But they will not apply themselves.
Who is talking about self driven learning? Every workplace teachers their juniors how to do their job, and how to become better at their jobs.
And as we are talking about junior developers it is safe to assume your conditions (1), (2), and (4) are all true, if any of them are false, then why did that person apply for and get a job as a junior developer? As for condition (3), all workplaces eventually hires a person who does not fulfill this, then they either fire that person, or they give them a talk and the developer grows out of it and changes their behavior to fulfill that condition.
Aside: you listed 4 conditions for learning. I am not sure these are actually conditions recognized as such by behavior science. In fact, I doubt they are and that these conditions are just your opinions (man).
> that becoming an expert has accelerated for those with the personal stamina to dig deep (this as a requirement hasn't changed)
This is a contradictory statement imo.
Digging deep still takes the same amount of time it used to. AI accelerates the surface level (badly, tbh), it doesn't accelerate digging deep. Becoming an expert still takes time and effort, there really aren't shortcuts.
To torture the Iron Man metaphor a bit. If you're not an expert without the AI, then you're not an expert with it.
Smart, motivated juniors have incredible tools to amplify their learning and capabilities.