Comment by dfabulich
4 hours ago
What article were you reading? This article isn't idealizing Japanese companies, and specifically discusses the drawbacks of the Japanese approach, including zombie companies.
The article's thesis statement isn't "the Japanese approach is better," but that business practices like these bundle together, that they're very difficult to change, and that each bundle has different advantages and disadvantages.
Ironically, you've proved a deeper point about how amusing HN is: we all tend to project our fantasies onto the articles we're discussing, even if we didn't fully read or understand the article.
I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true.[1]
In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal.
If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand.
>"The andon method is really the J-mode in miniature. Information flows laterally, authority to act is widely distributed, and the people closest to the problems are the ones who fix it."
Does your definition of a 'horizotal culture' actually mean forcing people to work overtime just to hit deadlines? Are you sure you haven't completely confused 'horizotally' with 'top-down'
[1] https://www.jftc.go.jp/dk/guideline/unyoukijun/romuhitenka.h...
P.S. The link I provided is an official directive from the Japan Fair Trade Commission (JFTC) explicitly warning large corporations to stop ruthlessly suppressing their subcontractors' labor costs.
> In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal.
This is the picture painted for me by the article. Vertical integration eliminates subcontractors. Horizontal integration squeezes them.
> If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand.
Same story here. When switching jobs is made difficult, the incentive is not to make waves.
> Does your definition of a 'horizotal culture' actually mean forcing people to work overtime just to hit deadlines?
Yes, provided your boss is working with you.
ruthless squeezing of subcontractors
Walmart and Amazon ruthlessly squeeze their suppliers. They achieve low prices on some things and try to corner the market on others (and then raise prices). What I don't see them achieving (to the contrary, I see them failing spectacularly at) is the quality control that some Japanese companies excel at.
So there has to be something more to it than that.
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Exactly, I was confused too. The authors clearly mention what the parent comment talks about, albeit towards the end of the article, that the 'J' bundle meant that these firms were not set up for success once they 'caught up' and were required to innovate not just process but from the ground up to envision new categories (e.g. iPhone).
Thank you, I was confused reading the comment above, because the article pretty clearly laid out the benefits and drawbacks of the system. I didn't see any idealizing.
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I made a very small and highly defensible claim.
You argued that this article (by David Oks) is an example of "how Westerners idealize Japan." I argued that this article does not idealize Japan, and that, if you interpreted Oks' article that way, then you didn't understand the article.
I didn't say that Japanese business culture is more "horizontal" than Western business culture, or that Japanese business culture is better in any particular way. I didn't even say that the article is right or wrong about anything.
All I did was to restate the thesis statement of the article, to clarify what the article actually says.
I don't harbor any particular affinity for Japan, or Japanese business culture. I know very little about it. I'm not an authority to speak on it, and I didn't.
You assumed what I believe without understanding what I wrote. You did exactly the same thing to me that you did to David Oks.
Don't be a coward about this, my friend. let me be honest with you. Why are you getting so defensive about an experience you haven't lived, when I was sharing my direct, firsthand experience (specifically dealing with automation equipment)? I know you probably didn't know I existed before today, and the feeling is mutual. For what it's worth, I checked out your game—it's really well-made. But that's separate from the fact that you attacked me.
The overarching tone of this entire article is clear: it is searching for something in Japanese culture that is supposedly missing in Western culture. Throwing in a few lines of critique doesn't negate the fact that it is fundamentally romanticizing the system. The author explicitly dresses it up with nice words like 'horizontally flowing information' and 'consensus.'
But that is purely a Western academic fantasy. It completely ignores the extreme vertical hierarchy, the lack of geographic mobility, and a social structure with zero socio-economic exit strategies. He looked at it entirely through a Western lens. Now, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing in a vacuum—the way I see myself is different from how you see me, and there are pros and cons.
But the Andon culture acts like a Panopticon. If you pull it too much, it accumulates and ruins your performance review. There's a reason Toyota had massive issues with power harassment (pawahara), leading to a new employee's suicide. Frankly, as a Korean, I don't like criticizing Japan because people immediately assume I'm just being hateful due to our colonial history. I was purely pointing out the stark differences based on my own lived experience.
And now you're making cowardly excuses after initially being sarcastic and implying I couldn't read? Look, you make good games. Your game is beautiful, and your site is great. But let's just be honest here. If you just admitted it and said 'my bad,' we could move on. We are both adults. Yes, I got annoyed and spoke harshly, but let's not pretend your initial comment wasn't sarcastic. Don't treat people like idiots.
Let's just apologize to each other and end this. I've heard that the Japanese game industry actually does have a somewhat horizontal structure, so I understand why you might base your perspective on that. It's a natural cognitive bias.
Honestly, if you hadn't spoken so aggressively first, I would have just acknowledged your point and moved on. What's the point of fighting on the internet? Also, if you ever need a Korean translation for your game, let me know, I can help you out.
Anyway, I was pissed off and snapped at you, and since we are both adults responsible for our actions, I apologize for the harsh words on my end. But let's be real—it's perfectly valid for me to be offended when you accuse me of not properly reading the article.
Please go back and reread your own comment and ask yourself if it was truly a fair critique
> In Japan, mobility is fundamentally expensive, and relocating to a different region is much harder than outsiders realize.
Unless said mobility is paid for by the company.
As part of the job rotation mentioned in the article, larger Japanese companies are also notorious for reassigning job locations, often at short notice and with zero care for family dynamics. Hence the tanshin-fu'nin phenomenon, where the husband is sent off to work at some factory or regional branch in the sticks for years while the wife brings up the kids elsewhere.
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How does the "concentration" of gamedev jobs look like ? In US and I think in most of EU countries that have noticeable gamedev it is usually concentrated in very few cities, so changing job does not necessarily consist a move. But other industries similarly usually have a niche and sometimes whole towns that rose around it.
I think main difference is that there is very little tradition of company thinking they own something to the workers, and (I think) far more of companies just buying out their competition and then gutting any tradition and institutional knowledge within
> (Moving in Japan involves massive upfront rental fees like shikikin (deposit) and reikin (key money), making the physical act of relocating extremely prohibitive.)
I don't think that part is all that different? While we don't have "key money" it's still a big deal to take your life and move it somewhere else