Comment by sosodev
4 hours ago
Support requests have always been the weakest link in the security chain for big corps. I've had accounts of mine turned over with 2FA disabled by humans before. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the LLMs are doing the same thing.
The simple fact that 2FA can be removed by low level support staff drives me mad. It defeats the whole purpose of the process.
A flow can either fail safe or fail secure.
Fail secure: if you lose your email, your account is forever locked.
Fail safe: if you lose your email, your account is not forever locked. But, someone else might be able to get your account by pretending you lost your email.
There are no other choices.
When the electronic door controller loses power, either door stays locked, or the door stays unlocked. In case of a fire you want it unlocked so people can get out. But then a burglar can cut the power to get in. Doors that stay permanently locked in a power outage are only permitted in extreme cases where security is of the utmost importance. But Instagram accounts aren't as important as doors in a fire.
> The simple fact that 2FA can be removed by low level support staff drives me mad. It defeats the whole purpose of the process.
Crazy Domains (one of the few registrars for my ccTLD) removed 2FA from my account (that was in the process of getting hijacked) despite me being on the phone with them specifically telling them not to do so [1][2].
What's worse was that my account got targeted by the same hijacker again when they seemingly changed their support system, and was hijacked for a few hours, leading to my Twitter account getting compromised (this happened around the same time fElon laid off a bunch of people and removed phone-based 2FA from accounts).
Fuck Crazy Domains and Newfold Digital (formerly known as EIG).
I eventually lost my OG username because fElon wanted it for his Grok nonsense anyway [3]. Fuck Elon too.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47856983
The fact that if your account has had the SAME EMAIL AND NUMBER FOR 14 YEARS OR MORE and support still thinks you got hacked is more embarrassing to me.
I used my work email for everything for 14 years, now I'm retired/fired/laid off and I can't access it anymore and I forgot to change the email linked in my Facebook account.
I would expect your IP to not change as drastically as some VPN IP being your only evidence that you're you.
100%
Urgency.
Emotions.
It's all there, and high-stakes environments with no proper protocol are most vulnerable.
Source: used to work part-time in IT support at a hospital, by now 10+ years ago, so it was routinely requested to circumvent regulations and security protocols, even medical ones (cough Windows in ICU monitors and other medical "kiosk" PCs that should absolutely not run Windows)
I love those admin passwords which a tech will give you at some point because he doesn't want to do the work himself. If they even have passwords...
Unfortunately Siemens woke up.
You mean
or
?
Horrific, people should be jailed for cyberattacks when they carelessly just give out this word.
The experiences I meant were mostly
- password reset requests (admittedly, we had a protocol even then to strictly require a "physical signature", normally meaning Fax or internal snail mail)
- medical protocols: don't wanna go into too much detail here, but:
1) Windows requires a lot of maintenance, often even hard restores, to function normally, even when sold as the UI for physical ICU monitors
2) Medical personell often is severely overworked, especially people in important, but not formally highly-qualified roles. And things like Surgery rooms and ICUs often have very slim time slots.
With the former, you should not enter into them without wearing appropriate clothing.
It doesn't prevent people working there from requesting you to finally come over and make that UEFI-Windows-Crapware-Kiosk-PC which was sold as a medical device boot... of course especially not when there is an ongoing surgery nearby. And of course, your higher-ups will be there to help you sort out these issues without violating protocols...
thankfully I didn't do careless things there and haven't witnessed IT-related disasters there. But still, I gave these examples for a reason :D
there was a healthy culture but some of the situations encountered in medical IT support should really require specialized, short-term training.
Keeping up rigorous hygiene protocols requires dedicated work by professionals, especially in a large hospital.
And the same argument can be made for account protection and user support for large software providers.
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recovery is always the weakest link in any authentication system
This is not wrong but what’s really missing is cost: Meta did this so they can avoid paying people to do it. Lots of companies follow that decay spiral: your bank could shut phishers down cold by requiring wire transfers to be authorized in person but they don’t want to pay staff or risk you being upset by a transaction taking an extra hour so they don’t.
Imagine an alternate universe where big tech companies worked with various trustworthy third-parties where something like this would generate a challenge you could take to your local notary, post office, library, police station, etc. where someone would check ID before approving it. How many phishing attacks would be prevented annually by a physical presence check?
> your bank could shut phishers down cold by requiring wire transfers to be authorized in person but they don’t want to pay staff or risk you being upset by a transaction taking an extra hour so they don’t.
Isn't this essentially what just recently happened to the Pope? Then there were people here doing the rest of your comment for him saying how egregious it was for them to ask for an in person authorization. It sounded like all he was trying to do was update his address, but changing your address from one in Chicago to one in a European country absolutely sounds like something a phisher would be trying to do.
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for a while facebook had the ability to recover your account by having them ask several of your friends if the recovery was legitimate but it was turned off. my guess is that not enough people added trusted contacts to bother running it.
https://www.theverge.com/2013/5/2/4292744/facebook-trusted-c...
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The amount of hassle involved with regular physical checks is why it's not implemented, regardless of attack prevention.
The cost of hiring a person is part of it but not really the core reason. People were sold on the Internet with "you can do things online conveniently" and reintroducing the need to physically go somewhere negates that angle entirely.
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Then you get trusted parties selling account access. Even if you remove them for a single false positive they will do it. A bit like a % packages "vanishing".
The least terrible seem digital id.
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It's a tough problem, because people forget passwords, change phones, lose access to 2FA devices, but still need to use their accounts.
It's worse than "forgetting." Having seen older folks just set up new accounts for a move, they make zero attempt to even try to keep them! Oh, the phone company needs a login/pass? Just type in anything, don't write it down. If something goes wrong, they're going to call in anyway, not use the website.
I had to go through the account recovery on my Facebook account once and the proof they demanded was that I match a bunch of pictures of friends to their names. I think it took 3 tries over multiple days to actually get it unlocked because it turns out I such really remember a lot of the people I met 20 years ago and friended on Facebook.
I don’t recall why I had to go through this song and dance. Very plausibly the account was still associated with an old school address that I could no longer access. So yeah, account recovery is hard. How do you prove someone owns an account when they’ve lost the things they are supposed to use to prove ownership?
I manage customer identity and access management ("CIAM") for a financial services firm. Passkeys are primary, recovery can be performed by providing a government credential remotely (which costs us ~$2-3 per recovery). I do not think it is hard, based on what we have built and spent to enable these capabilities. NIST Special Publication NIST SP 800-63 Digital Identity Guidelines is a helpful resource on this topic.
https://pages.nist.gov/800-63-4/
I think Meta just does not care if they're enabling AI attack surface and vulnerabilities into these customer journeys. It's...certainly a choice, versus deterministic journeys with hard guardrails. They could make different choices.
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It's a hard problem. How do you prove you own an account if you lost all proof of ownership? Especially so if an account was never tied to your real name, in which case you could at least rely on government ids.
Simple, you don't. This is all going to seem quaint in a few years when old accounts started getting deleted for inactivity.
fair enough, but what's the actual point of 2FA if it's so easy to override?
the alternative is people losing their accounts and people aren't willing to allow that. i do think that apple does this a little better where they try everything to contact you in every way they know and it takes a week to get access. at a minimum to change your email it should require a week of waiting to see if the user can access the original mail to the hand off.
In some cases, checkbox-compliance with customer requirements.
It depends. Some like AWS take it deadly seriously and it takes a long time to recover root access to an account.
low level support, means that they can be "bribed" to do things like this.
>> The simple fact that 2FA can be removed by low level support staff drives me mad. It defeats the whole purpose of the process.
The fact it can be removed by anyone is the problem. If you lose access to your 2FA (and recovery codes) then you should lose access to your account. Having it removable by anyone (other than a logged in account holder) defeats the entire point.
What if I don't want to lose my account if I lose my 2FA? Then I don't enable 2FA, presumably. But some security guy at your company is forcing me to enable 2FA or you'll just lock my account until I do.
> The fact it can be removed by anyone is the problem. If you lose access to your 2FA (and recovery codes) then you should lose access to your account. Having it removable by anyone (other than a logged in account holder) defeats the entire point.
At least make it a major pain in the ass to recover like AWS, which requires some kind of notarised identity verification [1].
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13122723
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is. Well, it gets complicated quickly when a wide range of users involved.
I always thought the entire concept of even password resets was absurd. Email is a huge SPOF for basically everyone.
If you lose your password or 2FA, you should lose your account, too bad so sad.
Completely unrealistic. Stuff happens. Email accounts get closed for no reason. People lose their phones, or have them stolen. Lots of reasons why someone might need an exceptional account recovery process.
Not saying it should be easy or routine, it should not be. But it must be possible.
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Yeah. I spent years working partly for the account abuse team at Google and that is why I always shake my head (silently, because the HN groupthink disagrees) at the endless parade of stories on this site about people who lost access to their accounts and can't contact support. Under no circumstances do you want any possibility that front-line support can hand your account over to anyone.
The lack of account support is a safety feature, not a flaw. If your accounts are valuable to you, act like an adult and write down the recovery codes on paper.