Comment by dtj1123
14 hours ago
I could in principle implement a spreadsheet or terminal emulator in human neurons, and we would agree that it isn't conscious. That has nothing to do with whether or not humans are conscious.
Clearly consciousness is an emergent property of certain kinds of network, independent of the substrate within which the network exists.
> Clearly consciousness is an emergent property of certain kinds of network
I happen to agree that this is likely, but it absolutely is not "clear" that this is the case.
What else could it be? Genuine question, I'm curious about alternative views here
Possibilities I'm aware of from the philosophy of consciousness field:
1. a unique property of a specific type of biological tissue, not substrate independent
2. pan-consciousness: everything is conscious, but degrees of it vary, it's as much a part of the universe as gravity
3. a soul - some of sort of non-physical entity that confers consciousness but is specific to an individual
4. external consciousness: brains as receivers for consciousness, not the generator
5. specific only to humans and not substrate independent (i.e. rooted in physiological structures but not replicable in non-human form)
There may be more.
Yeah but surely it is though, obviously.
Agreed. Some have even trained neural networks made of actual biological neurons to play doom[0]. Brain cells! Doing smart things!
I still wouldn’t argue that this brain in a Petri dish is, in any way, conscious. Despite it sharing the exact same substrate as everyone around me.
[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2026/mar/16/petri-dish-bra...
If you could do that practically and in reality, and get back to us with the results so we can debate them, that would be great.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/358822.stm
Leech neurons used to implement a calculator.
Are you suggesting that applications above some level of complexity can't be implemented using biological components? Because I'm pretty sure all I need to show you is a NAND gate in order to prove that arbitrary computation is possible.
Aren’t, right now, not can’t.
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It's not clear at all that consciousness is independent of the substrate. See the Harder Problem of Consciousness by Ned Block: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3655621
It is clear that consciousness is independent of the substrate if you don't believe in magic.
We could make a very dumb biological calculator out of a few genetically-engineered neurons that would very obviously not be conscious.
It's still an open question if we can embed consciousness in our current microchips if we had enough of them together (which I think we currently don't), or if it requires some other physical process we don't fully understand, e.g. quantum. I strongly doubt it does require any quantum shenanigans, but even if it did, we can and will find all sorts of ways to make computers that can perform those shenanigans too. Eventually we're just going to stop being able to move the goalposts, unless you set those goalposts in magic-land.
Quantum physics isn’t shenanigans, it’s completely fundamental and necessary to the brain and its electrochemistry. To say “yes but we can create a model of the brain which doesn’t need all that, we can model the classical physics or a reduced set of quantum interactions (running classically)” and then model the brains neurons on a computational substrate, well this is going to be nothing like the brain so won’t give you the result you’re looking for.
And say what you want about meat but we don’t seem to find consciousness in rocks or plants or clouds or hairdryers. And the buddists report that some very strange things happen if you meditate for years on end but obviously they must be talking shit and making it up because it’s not testably scientific.
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Totally agree. There's nothing magical about meat.