Comment by gcanyon
7 hours ago
I'll be the contrarian and take the opposing position: this story -- the doorman fallacy itself, ignores the obvious counter-narrative:
- physical menus are hard to update
- physical menus are often too simple, requiring asking the server questions they've answered a dozen times before already, hurting their efficiency, or they are book-sized and hard to navigate.
- physical menus aren't cleaned between uses, so you're touching everything the server touched, and the three people before you.
- physical menus don't scale: if the restaurant is busy, you might have to share.
- physical menus require more human time for the host/server to provide them to you.
- physical menus aren't searchable.
- Difficulty scanning the QR code *will* get better over time, obviously.
- Having to take turns is a user issue: it ignores how QR codes work (you don't have to be that close) and people will get used to it.
- (edit to add) issues with divvying up the bill are software issues that will get better over time if demand is there. Does the author really think getting the server to split the bill is easier?
The Doorman Fallacy in general presents only one side of the issue, which is perfectly reasonable for the creator of the fallacy to do, but puts on us the requirement of considering the other side:
- Having "a doorman" means having someone less than 1/4th of the time, or staffing 5 people (more like 6 since with 5 someone has to schedule/supervise).
- When the doorman takes a break, no one gets in?
- Some doormen go above and beyond, and are truly a joy to have around. Others are less so. Counting on the doorman being awesome is unfair to doormen in general.
- An automated system is on 24/7 -- maybe not in the early days, technology isn't perfect, but how many people here remember the early days of cell phones, when you *called support to get refunds for dropped calls*?
- An automated system can add or remove people from the authorized list easily and remotely, and not make mistakes.
That's enough contrarianism for this morning...
I find physical menus much easier to search personally - I can "time slice" switching my attention around different parts of the menu fairly easily and home in on which I might want.
It's clear how much menu there is to sort through. If I want to pick something for someone else (e.g. my daughter), there's clear sign posting to what's available.
Often the digital menus I get linked to are either just a PDF of the paper menu (in which case, I'm viewing it at phone window size rather than full A4) or it's a website with nesting in different ways, so you're not sure if you've seen everything or not.
I agree with a lot of this. Sometimes it is easier to scan a code, zoom until the text is at the desired level, and scroll around the menu rather than opening a large leather book with tiny writing in a dimly lit restaurant.
Going to PAY with the QR code feels a little worse. I went out with some friends and I planned to pay cash, the waitress came over to tell us all that we should pay using the QR code on our receipts - missed me, and I had to wait 5 minutes to let them know I was using cash. My friends didn't have much trouble, but we're all younger folks so we are used to pulling up Apple Pay or whatever. I imagine some people do not enjoy that experience.
I will say that there is this inherent disdain towards automated systems, and I feel it's warranted - to a degree. Some experiences are improved with automation, others are stifled. Sometimes we just want to talk to other people who understand our problems.
* the primary vector of contagion is unfiltered air circulation, not touching tables and menus (which are wiped down).
* I want you to go and tell another human being, in person, that paper menus cannot possibly 'scale'. Your brain has been deeply addled by SV culture.
* HUMAN TIME IS THE POINT AT A SIT DOWN PLACE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
* YOU HAVE YOUR HUMAN EYES FOR 'SEARCH'
* QR CODE SCANNING IS NOT "GETTING BETTER" WHAT DO YOU EVEN MEAN BY THIS ASSERTION??
* OLDER PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WITHOUT SMARTPHONES WILL NOT "GET USED TO IT"
* "if demand is there" IT IS, HOW CAN YOU ACT LIKE IT IS NOT, DO YOU NOT HAVE DINNER WITH FRIENDS?? ARE YOU NEW TO THIS PLANET?
Are you daft? I've entered hundreds of buildings in NYC with varieties of automated systems from the 70's to the 2020's and 95% of them are dogshit and there's no sign they are 'getting better'. Most are nigh impossible to use on bright sunny days because of the glare obscuring the addresses. Many are broken. Your 'contrarian' arguments are just counterfactual to anyone who has lived on this planet for a number of years.
Deeply, hilariously fallacious. Tell someone you love that 'automated' systems 'never makes mistakes' and see how much traction that argument gets.
These are absurd positions, invented solely for the purpose of being contrarian and not because any of them make any sense or add any value to the conversation. I'm so tired of this thoughtless, tired crap passing as legitimate discussion.
> physical menus are hard to update
It is not hard to print a few sheets of paper off a word document.
> physical menus are often too simple, requiring asking the server questions they've answered a dozen times before already, hurting their efficiency, or they are book-sized and hard to navigate.
None of this is solved in an online menu, and no one is concerned about server "efficiency", whatever that means. Have you ever eaten out?
> physical menus aren't cleaned between uses, so you're touching everything the server touched, and the three people before you.
They are often wiped down, but it's interesting you think your phone is cleaner.
> physical menus don't scale: if the restaurant is busy, you might have to share.
Of course they do. You just... print more.
> physical menus require more human time for the host/server to provide them to you.
What? In a normal restaurant, someone is seating you, anyways. Putting 4 menus on the table is not adding time. If they are not seating you, you are ordering at a counter. If neither of those are true, leave a handful of menus with the napkins.
> physical menus aren't searchable.
The browser patten for finding things on my cell phone is so deeply unintuitive that this is as silly as pretending that a menu isn't literally designed to help you find what you want. Do you think menus are just a bunch of ingredients printed at random on the page? Do you think you are the only person who's ever considered UI?
> Does the author really think getting the server to split the bill is easier?
It is vastly easier for the user/customer. How is this a question?
You make some good points but some are, excuse me, cringey-wrong.
> physical menus are hard to update
How often does a restaurant update a menu? Those that need to update frequently already solved that by having a chalk board.
> physical menus are often too simple, requiring asking the server questions they've answered a dozen times before already, hurting their efficiency...
How does a digital menu solve this? All online menus I've used have basically the same amount of information as a printed menu, with some being marginally better. The marginally better ones are the online menus for food delivery because they have a bit more flavor text, pun intended. This is however offset by restaurant-owners' tendency to put unrepresentative stock photo to go with the item and they just put a disclaimer about the photos somewhere.
> physical menus aren't cleaned between uses, so you're touching everything the server touched, and the three people before you.
Ok but please wash your hands after you order at the earliest and before you touch your food at the latest.
> physical menus aren't searchable.
Fair but only thanks to `Ctrl + F`, the best menu search interface by a mile.
> Difficulty scanning the QR code will get better over time, obviously.
I'm starting a prediction market if this will happen before or after Tesla FSD.
> it ignores how QR codes work (you don't have to be that close)
Uhhh...what? The farthest I could scan a QR code is about two handspans away. This was from the original Google Pixel! It was remarkably good at catching QR codes, I have no idea why. I thought it was the moment scanning a QR code has finally gotten better(!) so imagine my disappointment when my subsequent phones (even one Google Pixel 3a) couldn't live up to it. The 3a was still better than others. Even with flagship models, you gotta be pretty close to scan QRs not to mention wait for the exposure and focus to adjust.
(Whoever tells me "cameras can zoom now dummy" has never actually scanned a QR code from afar with the camera zoom lens. When you zoom, the exposure changes AND it becomes _super_ motion sensitive which is, obviously, not great for scanning things.)
> Does the author really think getting the server to split the bill is easier?
I am not the author but yes I do think so. Server has the table's bill in front of him and a calculator, each tells him what they had and pay in turn. Et voila.
Splitting the bill inconveniences comes down to a couple of factors IME:
1. the customers know what they had but don't know the price so they have to leaf through the menu again to calculate.
2. the table is provided with only one copy of the bill so the group has to scramble over one measly piece of paper, talking over each other, to compute their share.
Both can be solved by centralizing all that complexity on the waiter.
To be fair, I think the author's bad experience was due to wanting to keep the apple crumble gesture a secret. That is such a bizarre complaint, bro. It doesn't make sense to me either! You're all in a restaurant, everyone knows all the food will be paid for by someone! Why keep it a secret that you paid for the apple crumble?
That's enough HN for the rest of the week.
>> physical menus are hard to update
> How often does a restaurant update a menu? Those that need to update frequently already solved that by having a chalk board.
One advantage of a digital ordering system: it can track inventory and mark a dish as unavailable after N have been ordered.
Some restaurants might have menu updates in the middle of service quite frequently, if they have a daily special with a fixed quantity. Most restaurants probably have an unavailable dish occasionally. Or if a beverage choice becomes unavailable, or a new beer is put on tap.
I don’t think ease of menu updates would be the deciding factor for any restaurant, I think it’s more likely to be based on the experience they want their customers to have