Comment by 999900000999
7 days ago
Thank God.
If only because this would open up people born here to having their citizenship retroactively revoked.
The constitution is pretty clear. If you don't like it amend it.
If anything we need to expand it to include anyone who gives birth in this country. If you're willing to deal with our horrible maternity care system and help keep up our declining population, you deserve a blue passport.
The U.S. Constitution is very far from being clear. The whole purpose of the Supreme Court is to explain the meaning of what is written in the Constitution; there are 9 justices in the court and they often disagree on that.
Just look at the second amendment:
The "well regulated militia" phrase caused at least two very different opinions: United States v. Miller [1] in 1939 and District of Columbia v. Heller [2] in 2008, with very different results.
Just as the second amendment has this "militia" phrase that provokes arguments, the fourteenth amendment starts with
and the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is vague enough to trigger discussions about whether it applies to illegal immigrants or not.
Natural language is just bad in expressing rules.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller#Decisi...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller...
The jurisdiction clause is there because of diplomats. It's a common thing in other Jus Solis countries, for good reason.
The debate is whether the USA is a Jus Soli (no s) country.
Roberts claims Jus Soli applies to the USA by looking at historical concept of the words in the constitution and the king's obligations to those on his soil. He cites historical statements by founders.
Thomas and Gorsuch rejects Jus Soli applies since it is a concept from feudal lords and serfdom which the USA did not inherit. The cite historical statements by founders.
Kavanaugh thinks congress gets to decide the meaning (within reason), so he rejects Jus Soli as well.
Jackson worries about backsliding and using this to oppress people, unsure about her legal reasoning, but seems to guess at how authors of the amendment understood the words. I would still classify her as saying USA did not inherit Jus Soli, but later codified it via amendment.
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And so we have the whole bench of 9 people guessing and discussing the intention of the lawmakers. Did they indeed mean diplomats when they wrote "subject of the jurisdiction thereof"? If a Martian lands on the US soil and gives birth, will the offspring immediately be "subject of the jurisdiction thereof"? What was the common meaning of the word "jurisdiction" in 1868? This kind of stuff.
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Diplomats are subject to the jurisdiction of the US, that's why we have immunity agreements and we can order them out of the country. We also don't recognize the children of invading armies as citizens. Native Americans don't automatically get citizenship from the constitution. They get it from an act of congress in 1924.
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No it really isn’t. Immigrants are clearly subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. As Wong Kim stated the only way not to be is if the government has given you permission to be here without being under jurisdiction like a diplomat or if you’re part of an invading force. Every other person in the us is expected to follow us laws. Just because they don’t doesn’t mean the us doesn’t have jurisdiction.
Were you so sure yesterday that the Court would decide the way it did? I'm sure that with a different set of justices, the result could've been different.
A "clear" law would likely not result in a 6:3 vote. There are enough cases in the Supreme Court that get 9:0, those can probably be called "clear".
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This is why American Samoans aren't citizens. They aren't subject to the full jurisdiction of the USA even though they are born in the United States.
Yet you rarely find anyone giving a shit about the American Samoans, you never hear about it.
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>American Samoans aren't citizens because American Samoa is a territory, not a state. Puerto Rico has a special status that was extended to it to grant its residents citizenship – this isn't a status that's automatically granted to all territories, it requires Federal approval which AS has never formally pushed for.
Unless you falsely believe PR or AS are not part of the United States, you are just agreeing with me with extra words regarding the jurisdictional differences. The only option for denying birthright citizenship would be not born in United States, or not subject to jurisdiction thereof.
See this excellent prior comment[] on why the difference between PR and AS is jurisdiction and not whether it is part of the US.
>This seems entirely subjective.
I'm not going to do a formal academic study with you, it's plainly obvious as of late you see far more headlines on hackernews (a search shows a single HN topic on AS citizenship in the history of HN, but full page+ of search results on the birthright citizenship issue at hand) and elsewhere regarding the birthright citizenship issue at hand and far more rarely the fact American Samoans don't get it.
[] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16700413
American Samoans aren't citizens because American Samoa is a territory, not a state. Puerto Rico has a special status that was extended to it to grant its residents citizenship – this isn't a status that's automatically granted to all territories, it requires Federal approval which AS has never formally pushed for.
> Yet you rarely find anyone giving a shit about the American Samoans, you never hear about it.
This seems entirely subjective.
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There was no such thing as an illegal immigrant in the US when the 14th Amendment was ratified.
I can believe that there is a lot of variance in maternal care and obstetrics in the US, but my wife and I had a pretty good experience. Documented here in what detail I could muster in those days: https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Pregnancy
Congrats!
But statistically America lags behind most other nations of similar development levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_maternal_...
Not to mention the lack of maternity leave or real worker protections. A family member was fired for taking off time during a pregnancy. Everyone's fine now, but she definitely had a rough patch.
A big part of this comes down to the lack of any real safety net here.
Wow, looking at the data on that page, it seems that people should go to Belarus if they want to have a baby.
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> our declining population
Our what?
The US's population is not declining. However, without immigration, our population growth would be very close to zero, and a yet lower rate of natural increase is locked in over the next couple of decades (more old people who will die than children).
And, I mean, it's obviously hard to predict beyond that, but it doesn't seem like anyone has any real clear answer to the trend of steadily decreasing TFR right now.
I suspect OP mean declining fertility rate. USA population is still increasing, but is slowing down, and will sharply drop if the fertility rate remains below replacement of ~2 children per woman.
I believe OP is referring to how immigration is the only known working solution to a decreasing population.
The US fertility rate is already 1.6 births per woman[0], and the population is only not decreasing because it still receives far more immigration than, say, Japan or South Korea.
[0]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr038.pdf
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The US Is Flirting With Its First-Ever Population Decline - https://ourworldindata.org/population-simulation-tool
("demography is destiny")
The birth rate correlates inversely with female earnings growth and correspondingly with male earnings growth; or, more to the point, declining birth rates correlates with the advancement of feminism (including birth rates approaching and then reaching zero.)
This is an observation and not a judgement. Take what you will with this information.
Yes, because of the outdated assumption that women take virtually all responsibility for childcare, which is damaging not just to women, but to men and children too, combined with the it becoming more difficult for families to manage on a single income.
It is not just an American problem. It is slowly changing, at least here in the UK: I see a lot more dads taking kids around these days. I have still found people were surprised that my daughter lived with me rather than her mother after divorce though.
It makes sense to me. When women have more choices, they tend to put off having kids or they raise their standards - for their economic situation before kids, for partners, etc.
I think this is good; insofar as women have children, it should be because they want to, not because they're pushed into it.
I'll say - it also wouldn't kill us to have slightly fewer people on the planet. We're already taxing much of our systems/ecosystems past their breaking points. Smarter people than me, entire groups of scientists, are saying that what we're doing now is badly unsustainable and we're heading for trouble.
Slightly fewer is good. A rate of around 1.8 kids per woman seems slow but it's an exponential so it's still quite significant.
Parts of the world have reached 1.0 kids per woman, which is a halving of the population per generation, which will put a massive strain on our resources
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> I'll say - it also wouldn't kill us to have slightly fewer people on the planet. We're already taxing much of our systems/ecosystems past their breaking points. Smarter people than me, entire groups of scientists, are saying that what we're doing now is badly unsustainable and we're heading for trouble.
If you believed this, would you be against sterilizing third world populations to limit the overall population growth ( given those are the populations which continue to grow in this environment ) ? If not sterilizing - what about propagandizing their younger population to not reproduce? Would that be a net-good?
If not, why not?
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This is true, although I think it correlates more strongly with female participation in the workforce than earnings directly. And it's not a criticism of feminism, just a consequence that we should be aware of.
A material component of reduction in the US fertility rate has been avoided teen (15-19 cohort) pregnancies. ~40% of pregnancies both in the US and internationally, annually, are unintended (per the Guttmacher Institute and the UN, respectively).
Teen birth rates hit another historical low in 2025, CDC says - https://www.npr.org/2026/04/09/nx-s1-5777587/teen-birth-rate... - April 9th, 2026
Additional citation:
There's No Mystery To America's Fertility Decline - https://ifstudies.org/blog/theres-no-mystery-to-americas-fer... - June 30th, 2026 (“The U.S. fertility decline is shaped by many forces, but the data point to one primary driver: the collapse of childbearing among women in their 20s.”)
> This is an observation and not a judgement. Take what you will with this information.
Why bring it up at all if you're not trying to say anything?
Birth rate correlates with home ownership rate for people aged 25-34. Wonder why that's been going down despite household earnings growth.
It also correlates with the economy being more and more hostile towards single income households, but let's just blame women knowing their own worth.
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That exception comes from the fact that, I'm guessing, no diplomat or their children have sued over it.
If they have, I'd love to see exactly where a prior SC decided that it's constitutional.
If you are an originalist, textualist, or even just standard jurisprudence believer then it's crystal clear what the 14th meant. The only reason for any question about it is because a large portion of people hate the fact that someone can get citizenship by being born here.
The dissents violate the supposed judicial theory of these justices. It shows naked partisanship.
So what does “subject to the jurisdiction” mean, from a textualist standpoint? The word “jurisdiction” in the law can have different meanings in different contexts. What does it mean here?
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I mean, aren't diplomats immune to US laws? Literal "diplomatic immunity".
It makes sense to me to say that they do not fall under US laws and US jurisdiction, and their children likewise.
Diplomats have some immunities but are not categorically outside the jurisdiction of US laws. For example, they can be sued for “commercial activity” outside the scope of their duties. If a diplomat sells you fake Hermes bags passing them off as real, you can sue them under civil law.
> If only because this would open up people born here to having their citizenship retroactively revoked.
No, that's not how laws work
Applying laws retroactively is much less common than a "simple" rule change
This wouldn't really be applying laws retroactively, but deciding what the law has always meant. If the decided meaning is that children of illegal immigrants are not automatically citizens, that means they weren't automatically citizens beforehand. Thus there wouldn't really be anything to revoke, they just never were citizens in the first place.
The executive order that prompted this was only aimed at babies born after it went into effect, but I see no reason it would have to be that way.
Either laws work the way they're written and 4 members of the court disagree or they work the way the Supreme Court says they work and a worse ruling could threaten those citizens.
That was very much on the table, though not locked in.
That's not how we have traditionally thought citizenship works, but that is exactly what the Trump administration would've gone for next if the supreme court had ruled in their favor in this instance, thereby setting up the _next_ supreme court case.
> If anything we need to expand it to include anyone who gives birth in this country.
???
That's exactly what this ruling affirms; no expansion necessary: it already included "anyone who gives birth in this country".
They are arguing that the mothers should also get citizenship, in addition to the babies. That's definitely not what was affirmed.