Comment by dovin
3 hours ago
Just in case you were thinking of signing up directly with Moonshot to use the service, they appear to train even on API use:
> We may use Content to provide, maintain, develop, support, and improve the Services, comply with applicable law, enforce our terms and policies, and keep the Services safe and secure. Customer who requires restrictions on the use of Customer Content for training or improving Moonshot AI models may contact Moonshot AI to discuss available enterprise arrangements or separate written agreements. Unless otherwise expressly agreed in writing, Customer Content may be used for the foregoing purposes.
If they want to take my awful prompts and poison their model with it, it's their loss.
For anyone else that believes their input needs secrecy, you need to check the corporate plan of any provider for data protection clauses. Most use the cheaper plans as bait to get more training data and free feedback.
I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. Keep in mind that these companies are in the business of stealing IP work and reselling it to you with "safety checks" so asking if they use your usage data for training is a bit naive at best. At least the Chinese companies are more open and give back to the community compared with the "frontier" providers.
> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse.
No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that.
Their terms are clear - if you use the coding plans they can[0] train in return. Enterprise and API, absolutely not.
The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse.
[0] opt-in, thanks
>> No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse.
Their terms are not worth shit considering they are reselling you stolen copyrighted data. Even in they terms they started clearly say they retain your data for "safety reasons" for however long they want. Perhaps you didn't watch the space with Anthropic going back and forth with ToS updates(we retain your data for 30 days...stike that and add 30 days or more or no or ..whatever) like my own alpha website.
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I would think they are not but Alex Karp CEO of Palantir seems to imply that they are:
https://youtu.be/0A3sGymV6kY?si=ti7uSZtYqJ3vKpGM
I found it a little shocking TBH
Are we talking about the company sending back private information through its client to « fight » model distillation?
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> if you use the coding plans they train in return.
No, you have to opt-in to that. There's a privacy toggle on account settings.
Anthropic constantly uses dark patterns to steal training data from customers (like the “how is claude doing” spam, data retention loosening when the safeguards false positive, etc).
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lmao, wasn't xAI caught doing this recently? moreover at least moonshot is being honest about it.
they train on your requests by paraphrasing them (which means rewriting them but keeping all the saliency) and removing their association with you
i don't know why this is so controversial, their terms are written to perfectly fit this training regime
if you are using bedrock, until very recently, they didn't see your requests and could not paraphrase. but too many people were using bedrock for too much stuff they wanted to see. so that's why the terms for bedrock changed for fable 5. this was the core of the palantir / defense dept drama with anthropic.
There is a world of difference between:
* A company following suit with their entire industry in choosing a very generous definition of fair use.
* A company being the first to defect and actually break their signed contracts with enormous enterprises committing to not train on those enterprises' most valuable assets.
Training on copyrighted works signs them up to be a part of a system that is at this point too big to fail and places them in good company with all of their competition. Breaking their signed agreements would open them up to very well-founded and well-funded lawsuits for contract violation and give their competition a huge boost.
All of a sudden "we actually don't break our contracts" would be a selling point. No company in their right mind is going to let what should be table stakes become a differentiator for their competition.
>> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse.
So in your opinion, they are training on your data even if you toggle the "don't train on my data" checkbox off?
That's a bold assertion.
Not the guy you responded to, but I would assume ”they keep it safe” somewhere in a cold storage. Just in case they decide to train on it in a later phase.
Think of it as the Big Data hype some years ago.
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Yes, their entire existence relies on training on copyrighted content without permission being ok.
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Why wouldn't they?
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[dead]
I'm usually not the overly paranoid one but shouldn't you assume that all Chinese labs are training on your data no matter what the T&C say?
I would also assume the same for non-Chinese as well
The nightmare for Anthropic to be caught doing that combined with the temptation of their staff to virtue-signal by blowing the whistle...
I trust them to act in their own interest if nothing else.
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Not for Enterprise. You can safely assume the trillion dollar companies would ban GPT/Claude from being used in house if that was a concern.
I assume that all labs are training on any data they can get their hands on.
And American providers, not sure if it's still the case but OpenAI were doing this.
I assume that of all of them as a basic security precaution.
Interesting. OpenRouter classifies the Moonshot provider as ZDR. I wonder whether they have a ZDR agreement or it's a misclassification on their part.
OpenRouter's ToS also seems to allow them to store your submitted prompts anyway, so privacy advocates would have to look elsewhere anyway, that's at least how I understand it (and it surprised me).
TrustedRouter (my site) has open source proof of confidential compute that we aren’t looking at prompts or output
https://trustedrouter.com/
Why risk it either way if they provide weights for others to run this?
Am I being overly cautious not wanting to send my data to Chinese companies?
Your safety is more at risk with your data in the US government's hands.
My gut feeling is that Moonshot are probably ZDR but their terms are excessively permissive.
That said, I wouldn't rule out OpenRouter misclassifying - I've seen some providers where I'm fairly sure they have.
This page says no, but the privacy policy is the authoritative document: https://www.kimi.com/help/kimi-api/api-data-security
You think openai, anthropic, google, z and any of the others dont? They do, if they say they dont, they do. Who wouldn't in this earth-shattering race. So Naive