Comment by OsrsNeedsf2P
2 days ago
It's incredible Simon still believes pelicans on bikes aren't part of the training set, despite hundreds of them on blogs, forums, and Github. Stuff we put in our company blog shows up known by LLMs 6 months later, and we have 1000x less traffic than Simon's own website
The pelicans are still all rubbish. If they make it into the training set it doesn't help the models produce better pelicans, if anything it will make them perform worse!
Respectfully, the pelicans used to be an unrecognisable mess and now they’re unquestionably pelicans on bicycles, rendered poorly, from every model.
In the same timescale, model capabilities across the board have only meaningfully improved in places where the labs are focusing their training efforts.
Moreover, they have a uniform style, even though your prompt doesn’t ask for one. There's no model going rogue and producing a watercolour of a pelican. They’re all rendered in an approximately uniform style, even though the svg format has a basically unlimited possibility space.
You know what, that's actually something I hadn't considered before. There's definitely a bias towards a pelican cycling from left to right on a red bicycle against a blue sky and green grass.
Blue sky and green grass aren't that surprising, but the color and direction are interesting.
When I finally build the proper gallery I'll throw in a few other creature-vehicle combinations, and track some characteristics like which direction, color of bicycle, general pelican geometry etc. It will be interesting to see if other creatures end up with coincidentally similar design choices or if that's unique to the pelican-bicycle combination.
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> the pelicans used to be an unrecognisable mess and now they’re unquestionably pelicans on bicycles, rendered poorly, from every model
You would not expect that to happen if the models trained on the unrecognizable mess, right?
> model capabilities across the board have only meaningfully improved in places where the labs are focusing their training efforts
And the labs clearly did focus on improving image rendering.
> they have a uniform style
SVG output from LLMs always looks like that. It looked that way from the beginning; no LLM ever produced a watercolor when asked for SVG output. They all render the prompted element centered in the picture. They all tend to draw things going from left to right, and so on.
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> Moreover, they have a uniform style, even though your prompt doesn’t ask for one.
This shouldn’t really come as a surprise, particularly to anyone who’s used diffusion models. The same thing happens when you ask an LLM for a short story [1] without providing any specific details.
Even cranking up the temperature or top_p values is no panacea. The more generic your prompt, the more pedestrian the response.
[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42093394
If you’ve been keeping track of all of the pelicans, there is actually stylistic differences - sometimes pretty big differences as far as watercolors go. It’s an SVG so I’m not sure what you’re looking for there. Most look the same because the prompt is to make a pelican on a bicycle as an SVG. It’s not some giant image prompt.
> model capabilities across the board have only meaningfully improved in places where the labs are focusing their training efforts
That doesn't seem right. I use these models as research assistants when writing lots of random blog posts (including in economically ~useless areas like the history of contra dance) and Fable 5 is a serious improvement (when I don't get downgraded!) over Opus 4.6-4.8 which was a serious improvement over Opus 4.
Watercolors in SVG?
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being able to draw a picture of a pelican is really cool and it requires intelligence but i don't think it's a good measure of improving capabilities of these models nor AGI. we don't have to spend so much breath on it.
It's just a gut feeling, but I think you're running a (very slow) distributed hill-climbing algorithm. LLM1 generates an SVG. You post it online, with commentary on what is good/bad about it. LLM2 consumes the SVG alongside your commentary, and produces a slightly different SVG. Rinse, repeat.
I'm saying an example of what not to do is still an example.
Simon - has no one told you about the Willison-Pelican Scaling Law?
```
if is_willison_pelican_blog_post:
[redacted]
```
You haven't seen their final form [1]
[1] final form is a frontend/react/let's not talk about it, library - it caused a great deal of PTSD to me and my previous company's team due to its dogmatic preference for "we use these axioms, end of story", over practical utility - so it was quite challenging to do state of the art tasks such as nested form fields (e.g. 'user.address.personal.line-1'). The PTSD it caused made us all block out the memories, I suppose. But - it had zero dependencies. That is what mattered. It kept us going. We weren't reaching for more. We had plenty of time.
And thank god for that. Because I'd forgotten my watch in California - and this was in Tokyo [2]
[2] a joke within a joke about Jensen's Kyoto gardener story. Beautiful story, drowned out by WatchGate memes. Why can't jokes have layers? Models have trillions. If you miss 100% of the jokes you don't make, make all the jokes. Someone will laugh (eventually, maybe?) Even if it's: "this person + comedy club = full secret service detail". If someone laughs at that - at my own expense? I don't mind. They laughed. I know this is a gibberish, off-topic message - it's also a human message. I just felt we need more such things in our lives these days.
PS: have you physically seen a pelican in real life? (not a joke)
> PS: have you physically seen a pelican in real life? (not a joke)
We have several thousand living 15 minutes walk from our house. I recently started adding my wildlife photography (from iNaturalist) to my blog, so I'm posting several new pelican photos a week at the moment: https://simonwillison.net/search/?q=pelican&type=beat%3Asigh...
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Yes, I see your point.
Your pelican output is thus both in the training set and yet still outside the capability of the model architecture.
And so you are tracking both the capability of the training and also the capability of the querying!
When you receive your first outstanding pelican it will track a gain of capability.
(btw I first mentioned simonw-pelican-into-training-set in May 2025 on twitter.)
My 3D-egyptology-explainer showed a massive uplift for Kimi K3 and this tracks a much improved 3D capability.
I agree with that. I think, in particular, all the broken bike frames associated with "pelican on a bike" probably make it harder for LLMs to render correct bike frames.
...even with the glut of pelicans, aren't there still far more images of actual bikes (with correct frames) available to train on?
Perhaps I'm underestimating the number of pelicans(?!)
At this point I am simply interested in how much longer you're gonna ride this schtick
I'm a deep believer in commitment to the bit. https://simonwillison.net/tags/pelican-riding-a-bicycle/
as long as he gets paid for that
What does good look like?
The dedicated text-to-image models all produce good illustrations of pelicans riding bicycles. Here's one I got from OpenAI's gpt-image-2 just the other day: https://simonwillison.net/2026/Jul/14/pedalican/
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Simon has stated a few times that he knows it’s possible that pelicans could be in the training sets. He also has other tests he doesn’t share publicly. He’s just a fan of pelicans.
From the article it doesn't even sound like he cares about pelicans at all, and doesn't think they are a good way to compare models anymore ... but people are used to seeing the test now, and it does serve as a common "hello world" unit of work.
Pelicans and bikes can be in the training set without them training for this specific benchmark.
Yes and that would improve its ability to draw SVGs of pelicans on bikes, no?
> Yes and that would improve its ability to draw SVGs of pelicans on bikes, no?
I would think the opposite because unless people have been hand drawing these with high quality, the training would be on much crappier versions that old AIs have done.
and that is bad because ?
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Would it? Tongue in cheek.
It's incredible you can't reason to see if pelican on a bike is a thing. It's not! This has been discussed to death. You can ask any model to generate anything. Generate an SVG of earthworm and a robin boxing. Guess what? The smarter the model the better the image, doesn't matter if it's a vision model or not. I rolled my eyes at this eval when I first saw it, then I tried various ridiculous things and noticed a very strong correlation. Things that are absolutely not in the training set.
More to it, the actual bloody companies are using them as a reference. Maybe it’s a 3d version, not an svg - but it clearly shows they’re on the radar of these companies.
This reminded me about the news cycle last year that we were running out of training data (and how silly that was)
Yeah I asked Nano Banana to make a render of our company office and was scarily accurate
They can be in the training set but not deliberately trained for. There may be a lot of people posting pelican svgs, but not typically because they're high quality and worth replicating.
Did you read the post? It's not even that long. He explicitly mentions this...
Are they responding to: “I’m still not convinced that labs are training for the benchmark—if they were, I’d expect much better results.”
In my reading, "training for the benchmark" is very, very different from "this benchmark is in the training data".
Clearly not. There's a subset of HN users who rush to post this same thing every single time.
Maybe it gets posted every time because besides a personal believe by the person popularising this "benchmark", there is no reason to assume that certain labs aren't intentionally training to game this and every other lab at least unintentionally gets improvements for this specific combination of animal and action because the internet is full of both good and bad examples, often ranked, which does inevitably become training data.
I have shared examples of certain models by certain labs doing far better on the pelican cycling vs other, similar prompts. Just operating on a feeling that labs don't optimise for this (as mentioned, even if they don't training data is filled with these) is not solid enough that criticism shouldn't be leveraged when it comes up.
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Respectfully, did you? The comment was specific to doubting the believe simonw has that labs are not training [0] specifically for this task, which is exactly what simonw wrote in the post [1], that it is a believe of his that they don't. He did not mention any kind of evidence or any piece of information that would indicate that the commenter didn't read the blog post.
Did you read either the post or the comment it was referencing?
On the note of training on SVGs, I have seen some labs models outperform when prompted for SVGs of certain animal and action combinations (pelican on bike, panda eating burger, etc.) compared to other similarly outlandish prompts for SVG output that are not part of widely reported benchmarks, even shared evidence one of the last times this came up on here.
[0] ... incredible Simon still believes ...
[1] I’m still not convinced that labs ....
I'll note there's a difference between "pelicans on bikes aren't part of the training set" and "I’m still not convinced that labs are training for the benchmark".
I'm sure all sorts of crap pelican riding bicycle SVGs have ended up in the huge crawls of data that the labs feed into their pre-training steps.
What I'm questioning here is that there are labs who have sat down and deliberately tested and tweaked the performance for this particular task, independent of general model improvements.
The one exception here is Gemini, who have clearly invested a lot of effort in SVG tasks. I have no idea if my stupid benchmark influenced that decision!
Gemini have boasted about how good they are at pelicans riding bicycles, frogs on penny-farthings, giraffes driving a tiny car, ostriches on roller skates, turtles kickflipping skateboards, and dachshunds driving a stretch limousine. So if they trained for the test they did at least expand it a whole bunch! https://twitter.com/JeffDean/status/2024525132266688757
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It's incredible people still discuss the pelicans... But then again, the ad just works.
A person from Google famously put on her linkedin that her job was to optimize SVG for Gemini 3.0.
SVG output is useful, though. I often ask whatever LLM I have open to generate placeholder icons whenever I need them.
[dead]
Imagine if we applied this train of logic to humans.
"That artist saw a pelican at the beach once!" [cue the outrage] "He's not a real artist, he's a cheater and produces nothing original!"
This is a sight-reading test. If a musician practices a piece for thousands of hours, it would no longer be an effective sight reading / creativity test. The purpose of the test was to see how models would compose something novel requiring the ability to compose orthogonal, normally unrelated, components into a coherent image.
We do. People who, for example, memorize question banks to pass certification tests without knowing the underlying material are equally frowned upon for not having the problem solving skills that they purport to. I'll leave the contrasts between LLMs and people to the well-written sibling comments.
More like “This artist won the drawing competition because someone told her the theme in advance and the specifically practiced drawing pelicans for hundreds of hours.”
Except, of course, LLMs are not humans, and they do not learn or "reason" in a way which even remotely resembles humans.
Plus obviously humans can still overfit to a specific style of test.